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  1. #21
    Senior Member Dwigie's Avatar
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    I agree with the facial expression. How many times do people walk up to you and ask you if everything is alright or give you sympathetic looks,touch. I always get that
    I'm 5'3, curvy and look nothing like the description.(Which I think is BS) I was told that it looks like I'm lost when I'm walking or the complete opposite, depends on the mood.
    Sometimes I feel like I'm "on Mercury"-

  2. #22
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shinzon View Post
    How else exactly could someone have a type that they were born with and which was immutable throughout their life?
    I don't believe we are born with it.

    If you ask me, it's not a coincidence that more than 75% of the population is comprised of Ss, and that the Ns that roam boards such as this one are usually people coming from environments and societies that don't frown upon abstract thinking (N) as much. Meaning if you go to developing countries you're bound to found higher percentages of Ss (this says nothing about intellegence, but as abstract as it is, it makes sense that N sensibilities would develop more naturally in a country like the US for instance), since a more concrete and down-to-earth mindset is needed in order to survive even.


    First, we accept that a persons personality is dominated by a set of four of eight cognitive functions and the comparative strength of these functions skews how an individual views reality to such an extent that it would create a set of personality traits that each person would trend towards regardless of different life experience. For example, an ENFP is able to type himself as an ENFP because his cognitive function preference skewed his perception of reality in such a way that independently created a pattern of behavior that falls under the label ENFP. This is basically the basis of typology.

    I'm open to the idea that we all have genetic predispositions, but as the ENFP that I am, and looking at my background and life story, I can see a direct correlation between my well developed Ti (my 3rd strongest function) and my career choices (which quite frankly are not really aligned with my personal likes that much) - science. So, yes...

    new neural pathways can be created through use, this also explains why a person can choose to develop and become adept at any cognitive function.
    ....agreed. Why then can't the same logic be applied to our strongest funcions and the education we got at home?


    So again, if we are born with our type as seems to be necessitated by the idea of static personality types and cognitive function preference, what else could it be but the result of the gene combination that takes place at conception?
    I don't know what you mean by static personality types (could you please clarify?) but as far as function preference, like I hinted at earlier, I believe early childhood is the most important phase in a person's life.

    I was exposed to all kinds of stuff in that period, that shaped my life to this day. I never really cared much for videogames until one day I played one I really liked and it eventually made me want to pursue game design, which remains my current career goal. Funny thing being, that I choose computer related courses since they were the closest thing I had to game development, which in turn ensured I studied stuff I really disliked, and that didn't come naturally to me, like programming, for example, which, I'm pretty sure, was the primary reason why I developed my Ti so much. Moral of the story being - if I hadn't had that chance meeting with that videogame when I was a kid, Ti would probably not be my third strongest function today

    By the same token, my Fi could easily be explained by the education I received at home and the values and lessons learned at an even younger age. I believe subconscious stuff always comes from conscious experiences with significant impact.

    I can't say I know that much about typology, but I need proof to believe I was born an ENFP.

  3. #23
    Senior Mugwump Apollanaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shinzon View Post
    How else exactly could someone have a type that they were born with and which was immutable throughout their life?

    First, we accept that a persons personality is dominated by a set of four of eight cognitive functions and the comparative strength of these functions skews how an individual views reality to such an extent that it would create a set of personality traits that each person would trend towards regardless of different life experience. For example, an ENFP is able to type himself as an ENFP because his cognitive function preference skewed his perception of reality in such a way that independently created a pattern of behavior that falls under the label ENFP. This is basically the basis of typology.

    Now, we ask why those four cognitive functions are favored? If the different cognitive functions are handled by different areas of the brain than the ease in which these cognitive functions interact could account for the apparent strength differences. For example, in an INFJ, the area responsible for introverted intuition function has a larger number of neural pathways connecting it to the area which controls extroverted feeling facilitating the easy swapping of electrical impulses between the two. This creates a personality dominated by those cognitive functions.

    If we postulate that each infants brain comes slightly pre-wired to favor certain cognitive centers, we can accept that those centers would have a natural leg-up on other cognitive centers insuring they will get more use and thus overtime skewing their personalities into the categories and generalities which make up typeology. Since new neural pathways can be created through use, this also explains why a person can choose to develop and become adept at any cognitive function.

    So again, if we are born with our type as seems to be necessitated by the idea of static personality types and cognitive function preference, what else could it be but the result of the gene combination that takes place at conception?
    I couldn't have put it better myself! This is how type theory and brain science come together.
    INFJ 9w1 sx/sp/so

    "A wizard is never late. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to." - Gandalf The Grey

    And if I only could,
    I'd make a deal with God,
    And I'd get him to swap our places,
    Be running up that road,
    Be running up that hill,
    With no problems.

    - Kate Bush

  4. #24
    Senior Member MrME's Avatar
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    Sorry, but Introversion and Extraversion are built into your nervous system. I dare you to change from an extravert to an introvert. Good luck with that.

    INFJ
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  5. #25
    Senior Mugwump Apollanaut's Avatar
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    Socionics - meh!

    Whilst I am open to the idea that they may be some correlation between MBTI type and physiology, I believe that socionics adds a whole additional and unnecessary layer of complexity and confusion to an already complex subject.

    And did you know that in Socionics nomenclature an "INFj" is closer to an MBTI "INFP"? (There is not an exact correlation for Introverts in their system - very confusing!)

    So, the physical description they give does not really apply to us at all! Instead read the description for "INFp", (which ironically is actually more accurate for me).

    I have actually studied this subject in great depth (I'm sorry to be such a know-it-all ). My interest was piqued when I found I could sometimes accurately type a few people based on their physiology alone.

    A man named William Sheldon (1898-1977) attempted to create an ingenious constitutional psychology based on a careful examination of normal bodily and temperamental differences which he expressed in terms of the classic body shapes known as endomorphy, mesomorphy and ectomorphy.

    In his view, there is a strong correlation between ectomorphic body types (tall, thin, wiry, fast metabolism, lots of nervous energy) and Introverted Intuitive types (INFJs and INTJs).

    I fit this classification perfectly, being both INFJ and a tall, thin, ectomorph, with lots of nervous energy. I am able to eat huge amounts of food without putting on weight (at least I could before I reached mid-life!). Still, my personal investigations suggest that there is only a loose correlation between body-type and MBTI-type; there are plenty of people who buck the trends Sheldon describes.

    For more information, check out the following links. Highly recommended, because this same website has masses and masses of free information about Jung, Psychological Types, and all the other stuff we love to discuss on this forum:

    William Sheldon
    The Psychology of C.G. Jung and the Body and Temperament Types of W.H. Sheldon
    INFJ 9w1 sx/sp/so

    "A wizard is never late. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to." - Gandalf The Grey

    And if I only could,
    I'd make a deal with God,
    And I'd get him to swap our places,
    Be running up that road,
    Be running up that hill,
    With no problems.

    - Kate Bush

  6. #26
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    Let's see..

    - INFJs have a very characteristic dispassionate facial expression. Only when I'm relaxed and there aren't people around me. I don't like to show my default expression to others.. I hear it's very serious looking.
    - Their faces convey the feeling that their soul is suffering even when it is not. We're not suffering?
    - INFjs faces are often perfect ovals but can be rectangular in shape as well. Their noses are usually straight and slightly elongated, but not prominent. Uhh..?
    - INFjs do not show intense positive emotions, instead they simply smile. I do show 'em. My face just looks stupid.
    - In many cases INFjs have a slim, ascetic figure. Actually, that's true for me. I'd prefer lean.
    - Their movements are often quite harsh although not lacking mobility. When walking, INFjs may keep their feet close and parallel to the ground, maintaining a short distance between each step.' Naw. Quick long strides, long steps. But I'm not the most graceful when it comes to movements, but I'm quick and have good mobility.

    I like checking those things for fun, just like questionnaires. Even if they are stupid.

  7. #27
    Senior Member tibby's Avatar
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    I don't like to show my default expression to others.. I hear it's very serious looking.
    Haha +1

  8. #28
    Member Shinzon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    I don't believe we are born with it.

    If you ask me, it's not a coincidence that more than 75% of the population is comprised of Ss, and that the Ns that roam boards such as this one are usually people coming from environments and societies that don't frown upon abstract thinking (N) as much. Meaning if you go to developing countries you're bound to found higher percentages of Ss (this says nothing about intellegence, but as abstract as it is, it makes sense that N sensibilities would develop more naturally in a country like the US for instance), since a more concrete and down-to-earth mindset is needed in order to survive even.
    I also don't think it is a coincidence that 75% of the population is sensor and it doesn't conflict with the my genetic theory.

    Say you have two parents, one with brown eyes "B" and one with blue eyes 'bl'. Lets say for the purposes of this example that the father carries a recessive blue eye gene. This would make the father dom brown (B) with recessive blue (bl) or Bbl. Since blue eyes is a recessive trait, for it to manifest it would need to be matched with another recessive blue at conception. Since the mother shows a dominant recessive trait, she would carry double-recessive genes or 'blbl'.

    Because of the way gene combination works during conception, their child would have a one in four chance to have blue eyes because the recessive blue eye trait needs to be doubled with another recessive blue to get a child with blue eyes. There would be a 75% chance of the combination B from the father and bl from the mother resulting in Bbl and brown eyed child because of the presence of a gene for a dominant trait and a 25% chance of a blbl combination or blue eyes.

    The minority status of intuition in society can simply be explained by it being controlled by a recessive gene and this would explain why its also possible to get a family of mixed sensors and intuitives.

    I'm open to the idea that we all have genetic predispositions, but as the ENFP that I am, and looking at my background and life story, I can see a direct correlation between my well developed Ti (my 3rd strongest function) and my career choices (which quite frankly are not really aligned with my personal likes that much) - science. So, yes...
    Do you mean extraverted thinking? Te is the third function for ENFPs.

    I don't know what you mean by static personality types (could you please clarify?) but as far as function preference, like I hinted at earlier, I believe early childhood is the most important phase in a person's life.
    What I mean by static personality type is that even though we become actualized as we grow older by gaining mastery of other cognitive functions, we still retain our base personality type. The first four functions still serve their purpose as preferred decision making, information gathering function, etc. For example, in an INFJ, Ni,Fe,Ti and Se had a genetic head-start. In the real world we are never developing just one function at a time, but all at once as each function reacts to nearly simultaneously external stimuli. Since the cognitive functions are growing and forming connections simultaneously, the initial leg up those cognitive functions were given can never be overcome.

    Also take into account the fact that humans tend to live in their comfort zones until forced to do otherwise. Since the weaker the function the harder it is to access (perhaps by the small number of neural connections limiting ease of impulse transfer), our stronger functions would seem more comfortable and therefore would naturally get more use, tilting the scales even further in their direction.

    It also seems impossible from all of my studies for a cognitive function surpass your dominant or at least take on its role. I haven't quite worked out what biological reason a specific function is designated as captain of the ship; it's still something I'm turning over in my head.

    Funny thing being, that I choose computer related courses since they were the closest thing I had to game development, which in turn ensured I studied stuff I really disliked, and that didn't come naturally to me, like programming, for example, which, I'm pretty sure, was the primary reason why I developed my Ti so much. Moral of the story being - if I hadn't had that chance meeting with that videogame when I was a kid, Ti would probably not be my third strongest function today
    Typically extraverted thinking gets more use in programing and computer science in general.

    An extraverted thinker going about the process of programing an application would probably do a lot of planning ahead, implement his plan and then begin be forced to use Ti to deal with bugs and such. An extraverted thinker would be more likely to utilize programing flow charts for exmaple.

    A purely intraverted thinking approach to programing would be a tendency to just pick a point and dive in, the code growing and evolving as problems are encountered and overcome. Intraverted thinking is a more organic, unconscious, trial and error process while Extraverted thinking deals with logic and by moving in a step by step, logical fashion.

    If i had my cognitive function book handy i'd quote it directly, but it's currently loaned out to my girlfriend...

  9. #29
    Senior Mugwump Apollanaut's Avatar
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    Shinzon, have you seen this wonderful little article by Lenore Thomson? It is in accordance with your understanding of the relationship between the brain and the type functions (and with which I am entirely in agreement):

    http://www.greatlakesapt.org/uploads/media/beebe1.PDF
    INFJ 9w1 sx/sp/so

    "A wizard is never late. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to." - Gandalf The Grey

    And if I only could,
    I'd make a deal with God,
    And I'd get him to swap our places,
    Be running up that road,
    Be running up that hill,
    With no problems.

    - Kate Bush

  10. #30
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shinzon View Post
    The minority status of intuition in society can simply be explained by it being controlled by a recessive gene and this would explain why its also possible to get a family of mixed sensors and intuitives.
    Seriously? You're going to propose, quite seriously, that 'N' vs 'S' is the result of one gene? When there are quite clearly subtleties within type, with some individuals having quite distinct, strong preferences, and some being much less so? It's not nearly as clean cut as that; not to mention mbti isn't even measurable in the scientific, experimental sense. And the assumptions that mbti, along with cognitive function theory, are valid (hence, testable by those who don't just have a vested interest in mbti) in the first place - outside of an interesting and useful (at times) classification tool - would have to be proven first. And it would have to be proven that type doesn't change. But the act of typing oneself or others is subjective to begin with, so how would one go about proving that?
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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