[Fe] Fe oddness

[sculpting]

What I will say about social roles is (and I don't know if this is a particularly Fe thing or not) we all have social roles whether or not you want to step into them is up to you, but can you really be surprised at people for being baffled at you? You're someone's "daughter," "sister," "friend," "employee," "neighbor," "customer," whatever.

There are implicit expectations based role you inhabit at a particular moment or in relation to another person. We know the way a mother "should" act towards her children and we can identify when a mother isn't acting the way she's supposed to. We say that's not how a mother treats her children, or that's not how you treat a friend, or they're a good/bad leader. When we do that, we're separating the role from the person inhabiting the role and evaluating the person against their standards and expectations of that particular role. We can change roles on a nearly hourly basis depending on who you're interacting and what the situation calls for. You don't have any one particular role but you often step out of one and into another.

You say you change roles like underwear, but I'm curious as to when you change them and if the situation merits the change, e.g you're at work or some situation that's not exactly casual. I know quite a few ENFPs and I've seen them span several moods in the space of an hour, and yeah it's frustrating because there's no consistency. So what do you mean when you say you're always changing your social role? If the ENFJs you're interacting are all baffled by your behavior I'd first of all wonder why at least two (?) or more people all had the same reaction to me. They may view you as being inconsistent in how you present yourself and are probably trying to figure out how to interact with you. Based on what you said, it seems like you change just to keep them guessing, which sounds like a childish game. I'd begin to think you're changing as a smokescreen or something which wouldn't exactly lead to a congenial relationship, but that may not be what you're aiming for.

But how should a "mother " act? How should an "employee" act? Who defines those roles and are we really obligated to meet them? I make progress by ignoring the predefined limitations of those roles. Sometimes I do it unconciously but often I explicitly decide that I dont want to follow the rules anymore and change needs to occur. This means my children dont always wear matching socks or may eat rudy's instead of a homecooked meal four times a week. I go jogging in pajama bottoms and striped fuzzy socks. I email the COO directly when I encounter an issue and I go sit next to the guy on the manufacturing line to understand why we can't get the part made quite right.

I could be broken a bit as my brain misses some of the "rules" that others seem to notice without trying. I have to learn them like an autistic person learns social skills.

As for "casual" almost all places are what I make them to be. Everywhere is casual until the mission is compromised at which point my inner Te emerges. Otherwise I am what the person right in front of me needs me to be to establish that rapport.

It could be an ENFJ sees that and feels an air of neferiousness there, given how they interact with others.

 

[proteanmix]

Hello Si.

I have an INFJ buddy and she likes to talk about the people in her life sometimes, so one day there I was, attempting to give her the benefit of my (*ahem*) profound insight and deep understanding, and I ended up saying, "You're INFJ, you use intuition, everything you see is completely new!"

I was attempting to get at the idea that introverted intuition doesn't have a pre-determined structure for the next thing that happens. Sure, there's a wealth of prior experience that lets you get a head start on understanding, but there's also always the sense of novelty. The next thing you see is allowed to reshape the understanding, rather than always first be fitted into the suitable already-acknowledged category.

So roles get to feeling like straitjackets. As INTJ I'll often find myself saying, "Oh yeah, that's my role? Okay, fine, but what's real?" And "real" is less about what has been in the past, and more about what novel understanding happened just now.

And what's Fe got to do with this? At a guess, Fe's not such a big fan of independence in others. Even though NFJs are using their own Ni, they're still working to manage feeling environments, and someone suddenly changing course and charging off after some novelty makes more work.

It's just a guess. I don't really know.

The way I look at the role vs. the individual is the way I look at Santa Claus. We all know Santa doesn't exist, but the persona of Santa Claus exists. We can play with what form Santa Claus takes; instead cherry checked, potbellied white guy make him into a tattooed indigenous tribesman from the Amazon. But he's NOT Santa Claus unless he delivers presents to little boys and girls on Christmas Eve. That's the role Santa Claus plays. There's little point in denying that as far as I'm concerned, I don't question if the structure is real or not because it has real world implications which is enough for it to be real to me. At the very least the effect is real even if what caused it isn't. Oh man, I just confused myself!

You can slice and dice what the meaning of the role is, what function it serves, that it was at one time based on a real person but the myth outgrew the man, what is the myth, etc. etc.

Sometimes I think the novelty comes in throwing back the curtains and revealing how it's supposed to work. When you explicitly say this is what it is and this is how it works the newness comes in watching how people reassemble and renegotiate how there roles have changed. I personally like helping people find that role or how they fit into things.

Roles can be confining, I feel confined by some of the roles I play (i.e. the happy worker bee) or feigning ignorance about things I'm not supposed to know about or have an opinion about because of what my position is. But then my second thought is what am I losing and what am I gaining. Is the role too heavy a burden? Is it even a burden at all? I guess I just don't have much of a problem of people having expecting me to play a certain part. The expectation isn't necessarily a problem, it's fulfilling it that becomes the problem. I realistically don't try to fulfill every expectation someone has of me cause that's just crazy, but I do think I can fulfill reasonable expectations. Like being a responsible employee when I'm at work, or not throwing a stapler at my director's head when she's being stupid.

But how should a "mother " act? How should an "employee" act? Who defines those roles and are we really obligated to meet them? I make progress by ignoring the predefined limitations of those roles. Sometimes I do it unconciously but often I explicitly decide that I dont want to follow the rules anymore and change needs to occur. This means my children dont always wear matching socks or may eat rudy's instead of a homecooked meal four times a week. I go jogging in pajama bottoms and striped fuzzy socks. I email the COO directly when I encounter an issue and I go sit next to the guy on the manufacturing line to understand why we can't get the part made quite right.

What I mean to the role of of mother is one that is the connotations associated with being a mother. You can mismatch your kids clothes all you want, but you'd be grossly negligent as a "mother" if your kids clothing was never clean, tattered, or non-existent. A "good mother" does allow those things to happen to her children. That's what I meant. You'd be negligent as a "mother" if your children went unfed, although personally I would say that simply feeding kids is bare minimum, what they're eating is just as important as the fact they're eating.

So while personally you may have all these little zany and whimsical quirks to your role as a mother, you may not necessarily be shirking your role. The role of something is all the social and cultural stuff embedded in the noun, not the proper noun: Mother vs. Happy Puppy. Is this making sense?

As for "casual" almost all places are what I make them to be. Everywhere is casual until the mission is compromised at which point my inner Te emerges. Otherwise I am what the person right in front of me needs me to be to establish that rapport.

But you know you're participating in a shared reality right? And just as you resist someone trying to make a reality for you, they're just as capable as resisting the reality you're trying to make. So then what do you do, battle each other to infinity and beyond? How do you figure out what the person "needs you to be" unless you figure out where you relate to them? That's what I was getting at before.

 

[MacGuffin]

Fe gets a bad press on this forum. I see all sorts of loaded, negative terms like "sneaky", "manipulative" and "insincere" linked to this important function. You sort of expect that from NT's, but NFPs should know better!

I like Fe. I'd mainline it if I could.

*snorts Fe*

Woooooooooooo!

 

[the state i am in]

j is directive. so j types will be more directive and role-assigning. they want to get something done together as a collective, they want to push things in a specific direction towards a specific completion.

Fe is a lot of things. it connects with the emotions of others. it manages the environment at times so that it will not have to absorb negative energy. it opens up a channel for emotional conversation. highly charged emotions set it off. emotional adhd is kind of shocking, fatiguing, and confusing to it. it induces erratic responses that Fe does not feel totally in control over. it is more attentive and aware of the emotional temperature of others than they usually are.

for nfj, Ni wants to locate the object of its attention in light of the big picture. understand how it relates to other objects, processes, meanings stored within its own internal imagination/virtual environment. it continually feedbacks until it arrives at more and more specific understandings. it's very skilled at the art of stereotyping, but it keeps sketching until it arrives at something more honest.

i imagine enfj is a little more aggressive at managing others, whereas infj is more fickle and stays in its shell unless others agree to play nicely and be trustworthy enough to compel a somewhat shy and guarded introvert to open up.

esfj and isfj seem very enneagram 2s, both for good and bad. they want to see you physically smile; wear your emotions on your sleeve. appreciate them for their attentiveness to you. probably more direct in their management of the expressions of emotion in those around, esp. in a bodily way, and more formulaic as far as what are good and what are bad emotions.

 

[Samvega]

is Fe? Oh and how do I avoid catching it!

 

[Apollanaut]

is Fe? Oh and how do I avoid catching it!

You can't. It's highly contagious and there's no known vaccine (Fi/Ti users be warned!)

Anyway, most ENTPs I know (mainly my SO) overuse their tertiary Fe to the extreme!

BTW, I LOVE your avatar picture. I myself used darkly dreaming Dexter as my avatar on another forum. [Notice my subtle(!) use of Fe here to worm my way into your good books] :hi:

 

[Apollanaut]

j is directive. so j types will be more directive and role-assigning. they want to get something done together as a collective, they want to push things in a specific direction towards a specific completion.

Fe is a lot of things. it connects with the emotions of others. it manages the environment at times so that it will not have to absorb negative energy. it opens up a channel for emotional conversation. highly charged emotions set it off. emotional adhd is kind of shocking, fatiguing, and confusing to it. it induces erratic responses that Fe does not feel totally in control over. it is more attentive and aware of the emotional temperature of others than they usually are.

for nfj, Ni wants to locate the object of its attention in light of the big picture. understand how it relates to other objects, processes, meanings stored within its own internal imagination/virtual environment. it continually feedbacks until it arrives at more and more specific understandings. it's very skilled at the art of stereotyping, but it keeps sketching until it arrives at something more honest.

i imagine enfj is a little more aggressive at managing others, whereas infj is more fickle and stays in its shell unless others agree to play nicely and be trustworthy enough to compel a somewhat shy and guarded introvert to open up.

esfj and isfj seem very enneagram 2s, both for good and bad. they want to see you physically smile; wear your emotions on your sleeve. appreciate them for their attentiveness to you. probably more direct in their management of the expressions of emotion in those around, esp. in a bodily way, and more formulaic as far as what are good and what are bad emotions.

That's a fantastic description, and ties in well with my own experiences of the Ni/Fe dynamic as well as the differences between Fe users. Out of curiosity, how did you derive these ideas?

 

[sculpting]

But you know you're participating in a shared reality right? And just as you resist someone trying to make a reality for you, they're just as capable as resisting the reality you're trying to make. So then what do you do, battle each other to infinity and beyond? How do you figure out what the person "needs you to be" unless you figure out where you relate to them? That's what I was getting at before.

I never really thought of it from that perspective. I guess I have a really good understanding intuitively of what the entps/intps/intjs need me to be, even before MBTI I could do this. Honestly normal S types freak me out and I dont know how to relate to many of them. I just feel too wierd. I dont have any understanding whatsoever of what "role" I need to play with them so I come off as odd becase I pass over boundaries I didnt know existes.

Thansk for the thoughts, these are great conversations! I need to chew on these ideas more, as they do give me a very different perspective.

 

[Quinlan]

Fe makes me feel dirty.

 

[Apollanaut]

Fe makes me feel dirty.

Go and wash your mouth out with soap!

 

[Apollanaut]

Holy shit, you are scaring me!! Have you ever read "the giver"? It is a very scary world much like you describe

To be honest, that sort of world would scare the crap out of me as well! The trouble is it would be taken over by the ENFJs and the SFJs, who far outnumber us lovely INFJs. Then we'd all be living in Stepford Wives/Mary Kay Cosmetics-Land. Brrrr!

 

[Samvega]

You can't. It's highly contagious and there's no known vaccine (Fi/Ti users be warned!)

Anyway, most ENTPs I know (mainly my SO) overuse their tertiary Fe to the extreme!

BTW, I LOVE your avatar picture. I myself used darkly dreaming Dexter as my avatar on another forum. [Notice my subtle(!) use of Fe here to worm my way into your good books]

You flatter me, get me to look up a word I didn't know the meaning of (tertiary, though I have heard it many times), are with an ENTP, are an INFJ and like dark humor! You are now and forever in my good graces!

I will say that my Fe is unused, 3rd function according to MBTI or not my Ti/Ne are in an even heat followed by Fi and Se with Fe bringing up the rear.

As a side note, how's that ENTP working out for you?

 

[Apollanaut]

As a side note, how's that ENTP working out for you?

17 years and still trying to figure him out! At least he keeps me on my toes: there's never a dull moment when there's an ENTP in the house.

 

[Samvega]

17 years and still trying to figure him out! At least he keeps me on my toes: there's never a dull moment when there's an ENTP in the house.

sorry. I don't know anybody in a long term INFJ/ENTP relationship. Was it a little harder to get started? You can PM me if that's easier but I'm just wondering if you find it to be a positive growth oriented match? Maybe an easier, more free flowing exchange of information, understanding, communication. I don't know, just wondering your thoughts there.

 

[the state i am in]

That's a fantastic description, and ties in well with my own experiences of the Ni/Fe dynamic as well as the differences between Fe users. Out of curiosity, how did you derive these ideas?

i just tend to make it up. Ni thinks it knows something, so my mouth opens and it kinda slaloms down the hill one word at a time. i think Ni and Ti are great at synthesizing information, but binging on forum threads the last month doesn't hurt. a lot of it has already been said in extremely intelligent ways that certainly bear regurgitation.

also, what mbti type is kate bush? i need to know these things.

 

[Kalach]

Roles can be confining, I feel confined by some of the roles I play (i.e. the happy worker bee) or feigning ignorance about things I'm not supposed to know about or have an opinion about because of what my position is. But then my second thought is what am I losing and what am I gaining. Is the role too heavy a burden? Is it even a burden at all? I guess I just don't have much of a problem of people having expecting me to play a certain part. The expectation isn't necessarily a problem, it's fulfilling it that becomes the problem. I realistically don't try to fulfill every expectation someone has of me cause that's just crazy, but I do think I can fulfill reasonable expectations. Like being a responsible employee when I'm at work, or not throwing a stapler at my director's head when she's being stupid.

Hello Fe. Responsible and authentic.

But you know you're participating in a shared reality right? And just as you resist someone trying to make a reality for you, they're just as capable as resisting the reality you're trying to make. So then what do you do, battle each other to infinity and beyond?

Yes. Oh indeed yes. In the case of Fe vs Fi, indeed, one does. Because, at its worst, the reality isn't shared. The physical world is shared, but when things get to their worst point, the valued world isn't. The values are located in different arenas.

Or, in the particular case of ENFP vs ENFJ, Js provide closure and Ps provide openness. It's a dynamic designed to piss everyone off, or to liberate both sides.

 

[Apollanaut]

also, what mbti type is kate bush? i need to know these things.

Best guess: INFP. Waaay too introverted to be INFJ!

 

[garbage]

One difference that I've noticed between my ENFJ friend and I is that he tends to treat the people he's closest to really, really well but tends to shirk those he's not close to.. whereas I treat everyone mostly equally but less well than he treats his best friends. It might have to do with others' roles in his life versus some sort of obsessive need for personal integrity in mine.. dunno.

He's also not exactly the most "normal" ENFJ that I know.. but.. at first I'd get irked when he'd tell me stories of how he treated certain other people, and he'd get irked when I couldn't trust him to not do the same to me.

I hope I didn't phrase it such that it's offensive to Fe-doms or something, but it's just an observation that I've had.

 

[Totenkindly]

One difference that I've noticed between my ENFJ friend and I is that he tends to treat the people he's closest to really, really well but tends to shirk those he's not close to.. whereas I treat everyone mostly equally but less well than he treats his best friends. It might have to do with others' roles in his life versus some sort of obsessive need for personal integrity in mine.. dunno.

With my ISFJ friends, they tend to be "polite" with everyone, but the relationships are very regimented -- everyone is in different tiers, and the tier you are definitely determines the amount of warmth and time and whatever else you get. Usually tier placement is based on the Si perception of the world -- the social order they were raised with. Spouse and kids make up the first two tiers, then comes family, then various layers of friends and coworkers, etc. And if you're not in the top tiers, you won't get much time if any unless there is a practical need.

(I tend to be much more broad in my approach with people; I've had to implement a little bit of the Tier Effect later in life because I realized that I didn't have enough time and energy to indulge everyone equally, but my general process is to invest in people who are open to investment and who invest in me regardless of what tier I could put them on. I also tend to be more adaptive to the situation, so I'm open to exploring new contacts. That might a more Ne influence -- exploring possibilities.)

 

[Antreus]

Fe gets a bad press on this forum. I see all sorts of loaded, negative terms like "sneaky", "manipulative" and "insincere" linked to this important function. You sort of expect that from NT's, but NFPs should know better!

How else are we supposed to make any sort of initial contact with a person without at least some idea of their social role? When well-developed, Fe recognises that of course a person is not rigidly defined by their social role, and that we all use multiple roles in our daily lives.

However, Fe does need some familiar cues or stable points of reference if it is to stand a chance of achieving one of its deeper goals: to achieve a state of rapport with another person.

Only when we have true rapport with someone can we begin to really understand and communicate with them. Rapport also allows us to share parts of ourselves with another person and is the basis of empathy and tolerance. In our cynical modern world, the initial attempts of anyone attempting to make contact using Fe are frequently misread as self-serving or manipulative.

However, that person is actually putting a part of themself out there for others to see and respond to; an offering of the Self in the hope that others will accept their "gift" and thereby establish a mutually beneficial relationship. This act involves an element of vulnerability and risk. The offering may be spurned, rejected, ignored or (worst of all) insulted, which is one reason why FJ types get so upset when all their attempts at contact are continually rebuffed.

Reflect on this: if it weren't for Extraverted Feeling, we wouldn't even have a "society" in the first place (or at least one which most people would want to be a part of)!

Oh, I'm really on my soapbox now!

Maybe it's time for all us underappreciated FJ types of the world to unite and rise up to create a better society. Imagine this: World Conquest not through war or violence, but by enforced politeness, good manners and mutual respect!

I love Kate Bush too!