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Thread: Fe oddness

  1. #21
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    What I will say about social roles is (and I don't know if this is a particularly Fe thing or not) we all have social roles whether or not you want to step into them is up to you, but can you really be surprised at people for being baffled at you? You're someone's "daughter," "sister," "friend," "employee," "neighbor," "customer," whatever.

    There are implicit expectations based role you inhabit at a particular moment or in relation to another person. We know the way a mother "should" act towards her children and we can identify when a mother isn't acting the way she's supposed to. We say that's not how a mother treats her children, or that's not how you treat a friend, or they're a good/bad leader. When we do that, we're separating the role from the person inhabiting the role and evaluating the person against their standards and expectations of that particular role. We can change roles on a nearly hourly basis depending on who you're interacting and what the situation calls for. You don't have any one particular role but you often step out of one and into another.

    You say you change roles like underwear, but I'm curious as to when you change them and if the situation merits the change, e.g you're at work or some situation that's not exactly casual. I know quite a few ENFPs and I've seen them span several moods in the space of an hour, and yeah it's frustrating because there's no consistency. So what do you mean when you say you're always changing your social role? If the ENFJs you're interacting are all baffled by your behavior I'd first of all wonder why at least two (?) or more people all had the same reaction to me. They may view you as being inconsistent in how you present yourself and are probably trying to figure out how to interact with you. Based on what you said, it seems like you change just to keep them guessing, which sounds like a childish game. I'd begin to think you're changing as a smokescreen or something which wouldn't exactly lead to a congenial relationship, but that may not be what you're aiming for.
    But how should a "mother " act? How should an "employee" act? Who defines those roles and are we really obligated to meet them? I make progress by ignoring the predefined limitations of those roles. Sometimes I do it unconciously but often I explicitly decide that I dont want to follow the rules anymore and change needs to occur. This means my children dont always wear matching socks or may eat rudy's instead of a homecooked meal four times a week. I go jogging in pajama bottoms and striped fuzzy socks. I email the COO directly when I encounter an issue and I go sit next to the guy on the manufacturing line to understand why we can't get the part made quite right.

    I could be broken a bit as my brain misses some of the "rules" that others seem to notice without trying. I have to learn them like an autistic person learns social skills.

    As for "casual" almost all places are what I make them to be. Everywhere is casual until the mission is compromised at which point my inner Te emerges. Otherwise I am what the person right in front of me needs me to be to establish that rapport.

    It could be an ENFJ sees that and feels an air of neferiousness there, given how they interact with others.

  2. #22
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Hello Si.

    I have an INFJ buddy and she likes to talk about the people in her life sometimes, so one day there I was, attempting to give her the benefit of my (*ahem*) profound insight and deep understanding, and I ended up saying, "You're INFJ, you use intuition, everything you see is completely new!"

    I was attempting to get at the idea that introverted intuition doesn't have a pre-determined structure for the next thing that happens. Sure, there's a wealth of prior experience that lets you get a head start on understanding, but there's also always the sense of novelty. The next thing you see is allowed to reshape the understanding, rather than always first be fitted into the suitable already-acknowledged category.

    So roles get to feeling like straitjackets. As INTJ I'll often find myself saying, "Oh yeah, that's my role? Okay, fine, but what's real?" And "real" is less about what has been in the past, and more about what novel understanding happened just now.

    And what's Fe got to do with this? At a guess, Fe's not such a big fan of independence in others. Even though NFJs are using their own Ni, they're still working to manage feeling environments, and someone suddenly changing course and charging off after some novelty makes more work.

    It's just a guess. I don't really know.
    The way I look at the role vs. the individual is the way I look at Santa Claus. We all know Santa doesn't exist, but the persona of Santa Claus exists. We can play with what form Santa Claus takes; instead cherry checked, potbellied white guy make him into a tattooed indigenous tribesman from the Amazon. But he's NOT Santa Claus unless he delivers presents to little boys and girls on Christmas Eve. That's the role Santa Claus plays. There's little point in denying that as far as I'm concerned, I don't question if the structure is real or not because it has real world implications which is enough for it to be real to me. At the very least the effect is real even if what caused it isn't. Oh man, I just confused myself!

    You can slice and dice what the meaning of the role is, what function it serves, that it was at one time based on a real person but the myth outgrew the man, what is the myth, etc. etc.

    Sometimes I think the novelty comes in throwing back the curtains and revealing how it's supposed to work. When you explicitly say this is what it is and this is how it works the newness comes in watching how people reassemble and renegotiate how there roles have changed. I personally like helping people find that role or how they fit into things.

    Roles can be confining, I feel confined by some of the roles I play (i.e. the happy worker bee) or feigning ignorance about things I'm not supposed to know about or have an opinion about because of what my position is. But then my second thought is what am I losing and what am I gaining. Is the role too heavy a burden? Is it even a burden at all? I guess I just don't have much of a problem of people having expecting me to play a certain part. The expectation isn't necessarily a problem, it's fulfilling it that becomes the problem. I realistically don't try to fulfill every expectation someone has of me cause that's just crazy, but I do think I can fulfill reasonable expectations. Like being a responsible employee when I'm at work, or not throwing a stapler at my director's head when she's being stupid.

    Quote Originally Posted by happy puppy View Post
    But how should a "mother " act? How should an "employee" act? Who defines those roles and are we really obligated to meet them? I make progress by ignoring the predefined limitations of those roles. Sometimes I do it unconciously but often I explicitly decide that I dont want to follow the rules anymore and change needs to occur. This means my children dont always wear matching socks or may eat rudy's instead of a homecooked meal four times a week. I go jogging in pajama bottoms and striped fuzzy socks. I email the COO directly when I encounter an issue and I go sit next to the guy on the manufacturing line to understand why we can't get the part made quite right.
    What I mean to the role of of mother is one that is the connotations associated with being a mother. You can mismatch your kids clothes all you want, but you'd be grossly negligent as a "mother" if your kids clothing was never clean, tattered, or non-existent. A "good mother" does allow those things to happen to her children. That's what I meant. You'd be negligent as a "mother" if your children went unfed, although personally I would say that simply feeding kids is bare minimum, what they're eating is just as important as the fact they're eating.

    So while personally you may have all these little zany and whimsical quirks to your role as a mother, you may not necessarily be shirking your role. The role of something is all the social and cultural stuff embedded in the noun, not the proper noun: Mother vs. Happy Puppy. Is this making sense?

    As for "casual" almost all places are what I make them to be. Everywhere is casual until the mission is compromised at which point my inner Te emerges. Otherwise I am what the person right in front of me needs me to be to establish that rapport.
    But you know you're participating in a shared reality right? And just as you resist someone trying to make a reality for you, they're just as capable as resisting the reality you're trying to make. So then what do you do, battle each other to infinity and beyond? How do you figure out what the person "needs you to be" unless you figure out where you relate to them? That's what I was getting at before.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apollanaut View Post
    Fe gets a bad press on this forum. I see all sorts of loaded, negative terms like "sneaky", "manipulative" and "insincere" linked to this important function. You sort of expect that from NT's, but NFPs should know better!
    I like Fe. I'd mainline it if I could.

    *snorts Fe*

    Woooooooooooo!

  4. #24
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    j is directive. so j types will be more directive and role-assigning. they want to get something done together as a collective, they want to push things in a specific direction towards a specific completion.

    Fe is a lot of things. it connects with the emotions of others. it manages the environment at times so that it will not have to absorb negative energy. it opens up a channel for emotional conversation. highly charged emotions set it off. emotional adhd is kind of shocking, fatiguing, and confusing to it. it induces erratic responses that Fe does not feel totally in control over. it is more attentive and aware of the emotional temperature of others than they usually are.

    for nfj, Ni wants to locate the object of its attention in light of the big picture. understand how it relates to other objects, processes, meanings stored within its own internal imagination/virtual environment. it continually feedbacks until it arrives at more and more specific understandings. it's very skilled at the art of stereotyping, but it keeps sketching until it arrives at something more honest.

    i imagine enfj is a little more aggressive at managing others, whereas infj is more fickle and stays in its shell unless others agree to play nicely and be trustworthy enough to compel a somewhat shy and guarded introvert to open up.

    esfj and isfj seem very enneagram 2s, both for good and bad. they want to see you physically smile; wear your emotions on your sleeve. appreciate them for their attentiveness to you. probably more direct in their management of the expressions of emotion in those around, esp. in a bodily way, and more formulaic as far as what are good and what are bad emotions.

  5. #25
    Buddhist Misanthrope Samvega's Avatar
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    is Fe? Oh and how do I avoid catching it!

  6. #26
    Senior Mugwump Apollanaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TucsonENTP View Post
    is Fe? Oh and how do I avoid catching it!
    You can't. It's highly contagious and there's no known vaccine (Fi/Ti users be warned!)

    Anyway, most ENTPs I know (mainly my SO) overuse their tertiary Fe to the extreme!

    BTW, I LOVE your avatar picture. I myself used darkly dreaming Dexter as my avatar on another forum. [Notice my subtle(!) use of Fe here to worm my way into your good books]
    INFJ 9w1 sx/sp/so

    "A wizard is never late. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to." - Gandalf The Grey

    And if I only could,
    I'd make a deal with God,
    And I'd get him to swap our places,
    Be running up that road,
    Be running up that hill,
    With no problems.

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  7. #27
    Senior Mugwump Apollanaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    j is directive. so j types will be more directive and role-assigning. they want to get something done together as a collective, they want to push things in a specific direction towards a specific completion.

    Fe is a lot of things. it connects with the emotions of others. it manages the environment at times so that it will not have to absorb negative energy. it opens up a channel for emotional conversation. highly charged emotions set it off. emotional adhd is kind of shocking, fatiguing, and confusing to it. it induces erratic responses that Fe does not feel totally in control over. it is more attentive and aware of the emotional temperature of others than they usually are.

    for nfj, Ni wants to locate the object of its attention in light of the big picture. understand how it relates to other objects, processes, meanings stored within its own internal imagination/virtual environment. it continually feedbacks until it arrives at more and more specific understandings. it's very skilled at the art of stereotyping, but it keeps sketching until it arrives at something more honest.

    i imagine enfj is a little more aggressive at managing others, whereas infj is more fickle and stays in its shell unless others agree to play nicely and be trustworthy enough to compel a somewhat shy and guarded introvert to open up.

    esfj and isfj seem very enneagram 2s, both for good and bad. they want to see you physically smile; wear your emotions on your sleeve. appreciate them for their attentiveness to you. probably more direct in their management of the expressions of emotion in those around, esp. in a bodily way, and more formulaic as far as what are good and what are bad emotions.
    That's a fantastic description, and ties in well with my own experiences of the Ni/Fe dynamic as well as the differences between Fe users. Out of curiosity, how did you derive these ideas?
    INFJ 9w1 sx/sp/so

    "A wizard is never late. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to." - Gandalf The Grey

    And if I only could,
    I'd make a deal with God,
    And I'd get him to swap our places,
    Be running up that road,
    Be running up that hill,
    With no problems.

    - Kate Bush

  8. #28
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    But you know you're participating in a shared reality right? And just as you resist someone trying to make a reality for you, they're just as capable as resisting the reality you're trying to make. So then what do you do, battle each other to infinity and beyond? How do you figure out what the person "needs you to be" unless you figure out where you relate to them? That's what I was getting at before.
    I never really thought of it from that perspective. I guess I have a really good understanding intuitively of what the entps/intps/intjs need me to be, even before MBTI I could do this. Honestly normal S types freak me out and I dont know how to relate to many of them. I just feel too wierd. I dont have any understanding whatsoever of what "role" I need to play with them so I come off as odd becase I pass over boundaries I didnt know existes.

    Thansk for the thoughts, these are great conversations! I need to chew on these ideas more, as they do give me a very different perspective.

  9. #29
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    Fe makes me feel dirty.

  10. #30
    Senior Mugwump Apollanaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    Fe makes me feel dirty.
    Go and wash your mouth out with soap!
    INFJ 9w1 sx/sp/so

    "A wizard is never late. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to." - Gandalf The Grey

    And if I only could,
    I'd make a deal with God,
    And I'd get him to swap our places,
    Be running up that road,
    Be running up that hill,
    With no problems.

    - Kate Bush

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