[MBTI General] nf songwriters/musicians

[sleuthiness]

i think i'm switching my favorite songwriter ever david berman to infp, but i'm switching stephen malkmus to infj. he seems like the writer tom wolfe but all slackered out. i think Fe is really good at mimicking voices, it learns how to articulate in the voice of the Other. and stephen always has that jutted out hip.

I think of Malkmus as infp. Apart from the fact that I've had a professor who looked exactly like him (yet moaned a few times how he wishes he had some artistic talent), there's a question I have about his songs that's maybe beside the point - that only he and people who have seen him play can answer: does he really remember all the words? So many of his songs seem like they could be worked on or tweaked a little more, and I wouldn't be surprised if he himself has said that in any youtube interviews. Look at Wowee Zowee - over the first half of the album (at the very least) he hops from one foreign band style to the next, trying them on like mothballed up suits at a garage sale. infp. I don't have any links, but infp, damnit.

i'm still working on these. and awaiting criticism/updates for others already listed.

fiona apple (isfp)
lenny kravitz (isfp)
ben harper (isfp)
jewel (isfp)
m ward (isfp)
jason pierce (isfp)
layne staley (isfp)

mark mathersbaugh (infj)
daniel johnston (infj)
will shef (infj?)
paul simon (infj?) HOW DO I GET IT THROUGH YOUR UPPER BASEBOARD? YES!
mars volta (infj)
shannon hoon (infx)
lou barlow (infx) infj
bill callahan (infx)
will oldham After about 30 minutes of watching footage, I'm ready to call him infj.

arthur russell (enfj) I'll go back to infp.

neko case (intp)
john zorn (intp)

I suppose your isfps are right, but I'm not going to double check right now.

Me today:

Josh Homme (enfp)
Ian Brown (intj)
Billy Childish (intj)
Paul Westerberg (estp)
Sly Stone (isfp?)
James Brown (esfp)
Van Dyke Parks (entp)
Robert Pollard (entp)
Ray Davies (infj)
Loudon Wainwright III (entp)
Lyle Lovett (intp)
John Darnielle (entp)
Neil Young (infj)
Nick Lowe (intj)
Chrissie Hynde (estp)
R. Stevie Moore (intj)
Richard Thompson (intp)

 

[sleuthiness]

You know what? I'm going to jump right out and say that Kate is an ISTJ. I know a girl who has been in several of my classes over the years and they seem very similar. Moreover, I don't hear dominant Fi in her music. Very plodding, step by step snorefest music. And remember how we decided that Tori Amos is istj? There's a duet on youtube between the two of them (YouTube - Kate Bush, Tori Amos "Duet"). Robots.

Nevermind. Kate has that really goofy infp lip pucker. infp.

 

[the state i am in]

i'm loving this conversation right now. john darnielle is mountain goats, no? his songs seem introverted, and then you watch him on stage and he's way too in love with himself and he's comporting himself with such a gleeful happy look-at-me grin, he seems enfp to me more so than entp.

the two main reasons i don't completely accept some of the decisions you've suggested so far are that a. i've only heard one paul simon song ever and b. you're a flip-flopper like me. out of the last 100 days, i've thought stephen malkmus was an infp for at LEAST 98 of them. i also agree that his songs are not planned out enough for an infj. yet i was utterly convinced. plus he always seems drunk. ok he's definitely an infp. wowee zowee is the nail in the coffin. and the best pavement record ever. grounded? father to a sister of thought. the opening guitar chords on rattled by the rush. yet gold soundz is his greatest song. agree?

also, do you know david berman/silver jews? do you agree that he's infp? conor oberst seems pretty certainly infp too, right?

i try to go by functions when i see them, other times it's just weird analogies that seem relevant, people i know, my intp friends, speech patterns, etc.

i would like more explanation for neil young, robert pollard (what happened to intj? the only song that sticks with me/resonates is i am a scientist and his weird intuition which i'd guess is Ni but might be Ne), lou barlow, arthur russell, and will oldham. i agree about richard thompson and your estps. i hate estps, even tho i want to like westerberg, i just can't do it and it annoys my friend.

ps you do the socionics thing? you seem to notice physical details way more than i do, i'm all about reading the text and then guessing. also who relates to it and how. also what kind of iconography they use, what their band seems to symbolically represent, etc.

 

[sleuthiness]

i'm loving this conversation right now. john darnielle is mountain goats, no? his songs seem introverted, and then you watch him on stage and he's way too in love with himself and he's comporting himself with such a gleeful happy look-at-me grin, he seems enfp to me more so than entp.

Late night guess without reliance on video/music. But yeah, his jokes do seem to be a little cloudier than if he had auxiliary Ti.

the two main reasons i don't completely accept some of the decisions you've suggested so far are that a. i've only heard one paul simon song ever

Watch this: YouTube - Paul Simon's birthday profile.

Paul looks to express truth in his music, not emotion.

Also (YouTube - 4 Paul Simon BBC TV (50 Ways To Leave Your Lover)), besides being one of the best songs in history, the linked song is very infj-y with the list of ways to leave a woman, giving advice.

and b. you're a flip-flopper like me. out of the last 100 days, i've thought stephen malkmus was an infp for at LEAST 98 of them. i also agree that his songs are not planned out enough for an infj. yet i was utterly convinced. plus he always seems drunk. ok he's definitely an infp. wowee zowee is the nail in the coffin. and the best pavement record ever. grounded? father to a sister of thought. the opening guitar chords on rattled by the rush. yet gold soundz is his greatest song. agree?

Well of course it is. Only the most fractured music for me, please. At & t is my favorite off it. You should check out Couch Flambeau if you also like feeling drunk while listening to music. They really walked the goofball/serious tightrope better than anyone when they were active and I haven't heard anyone do it better. Typing the singer is peanuts!

also, do you know david berman/silver jews? do you agree that he's infp? conor oberst seems pretty certainly infp too, right?

Yeah, I think so to both. I can relate to a lot of Berman's lyrics and song titles. Honk if you're lonely. Smith and jones. Just to take a random stab at it... "forever, together, forever and ever, fogether, together, forever and ever" seems like an Ne-produced line, a sort of spacey delivery that's open to interpretation. With Oberst I can't say that I definitely support or deny your idea. I can say that I don't listen to him. Girly man music.

ps you do the socionics thing? you seem to notice physical details way more than i do, i'm all about reading the text and then guessing. also who relates to it and how. also what kind of iconography they use, what their band seems to symbolically represent, etc.

I do all that jazz. I think the subtypes concept from socionics is rather helpful so far, but I've not memorized it yet.

Noticing how people start and finish their sentences, how they present their train of thought: where are the patterns? Can I picture myself singing their songs? Where are the signs in this person's metaphors that point to why I do/don't listen to this music. Which parts of the delivery does this musician emphasize? Which part of the song seems to be emphasized most? Or is it the entire song, the rolling experience? Do I hear a lot of "whatever", "wherever", "whomever" in songs that deal with other people, or do I hear colors, sounds, experiences that are solidly painted as they really are rather than fantasies? Sure, most infx musicians start speaking the same way, but I can see/hear the p's go on for a short while then slowly run out of steam, expecting the interviewer to get the gist of the direction in their response despite not really being complete thoughts because the musician WILL go to bed and think think think about it, probably for several months (maybe not all in bed), whereas j's go on and on and on, but I think they have a better perspective on whether they've answered a question thoroughly enough because of that Ti, or whichever label you want to give it. But sure, I think that it might be tougher for me to retain and compare on a larger scope than maybe you. I do appreciate your help and hope I'm helping you understand this as well.

I'll try to explain myself on those other people much later tonight or tomorrow maybe.

 

[Moiety]

I'd say Josh Homme is ESTP.

Steven Wilson from Porcupine Tree seems like an INFX.
Neal Morse, ex-Spock's Beard might be an ENFJ.

 

[the state i am in]

i really want to get to the bottom of a functional analysis of musical performers, songwriters, etc.

i want to see Fe vs Fi, Ni vs Ne, Ti vs Te. and i especially want to see it in the context of infj vs infp, bc it drives me mad. what kind of emotional expression best suits their cognitive styles? how to locate and find something emotionally powerful, volatile, explosive (which is important to me in any definition of why i love art in general) for both feeling types. but also how that pairs with the other functions, Ni Ne and Ti Te. i feel overly reliant on Ti and it feels like it makes me almost unmusical. i do not know how to work Fe and secondary Se to create a lasting expression that feels as much as it knows. i need to work the extraverted processes better to articulate and sketch my expression until it meets my internally authenticated standards.

there's a lot of modeling already done by these musicians, showing potentials and their pitfalls. i want to learn from it so i can skip steps. even more so i just want to dig into its complexity in a better way than i can currently grasp. a cleaner understanding.

 

[BlueScreen]

i really want to get to the bottom of a functional analysis of musical performers, songwriters, etc.

i want to see Fe vs Fi, Ni vs Ne, Ti vs Te. and i especially want to see it in the context of infj vs infp, bc it drives me mad. what kind of emotional expression best suits their cognitive styles? how to locate and find something emotionally powerful, volatile, explosive (which is important to me in any definition of why i love art in general) for both feeling types. but also how that pairs with the other functions, Ni Ne and Ti Te. i feel overly reliant on Ti and it feels like it makes me almost unmusical. i do not know how to work Fe and secondary Se to create a lasting expression that feels as much as it knows. i need to work the extraverted processes better to articulate and sketch my expression until it meets my internally authenticated standards.

there's a lot of modeling already done by these musicians, showing potentials and their pitfalls. i want to learn from it so i can skip steps. even more so i just want to dig into its complexity in a better way than i can currently grasp. a cleaner understanding.

I really want to get this stuff too. I can never figure out where ENFPs fit into the musical picture. And I want to know where they normally fall, where they excel, what I need to practise or learn to compensate for these weaknesses, whether I'll ever be really decent on musical instruments or am cursed by my lack of sensing functions and attention to detail, etc.

 

[sleuthiness]

State, I can say that I've come to a final conclusion with Prince. There hasn't been a time in my life that I've been around so many alphas. Lots of colorful dress and beautiful women. I sat in the second row behind the first, about 25-30 feet from the stage, behind Whitney Houston and her nicely bald isfp husband, between Whoopi Goldberg (a quiet isfp, not list-making entj) disguised as cousin it in a gopher bathrobe and some entp guy who didn't move a smidge the entire show, the stale bastard. And about the show... I (and the probably the rest of the crowd) can understand how the man would grow tired of playing the old songs, so we clapped to the crappy new songs anyway hoping he would, and he did play some hits. He needs to dump the harmonica player. That has to be on the top 5 list of the most hideous instrumental creations in the history of mankind, coming across like a baby elephant suffocating on peanut butter/tar mish mash. But Prince was great. Everything he did came across as natural, and impossible to pin down, stylistically. Extroverted alien. ENTP.

 

[the state i am in]

enfp can get the best out of everyone, but it needs introversion balance to concentrate and focus the expression. some of the more in between e/i enfps that give us trouble (jim morrison, john lennon, etc) are great self-contained examples. in high school and some of college i used to be in love with the band phish. the frontman trey anastasio is a classic gushy enfp. watch bittersweet motel. the band is really formulated around the balance of each instrument, tho it seems esp predicated melodically on enfp trey (guitar, composition) and infp mike (bass). with (i'd guess) esfj page on keyboards and entp fishman on drums. its always overflowing with ideas. i wrote an honors thesis on them in college, it was really focused on the group dynamic. if i had known about mbti, it would have been way different.

i think the myth of greatness confuses us sometimes. its iconography more than reality. different types need different counterbalancing functions. it takes a lot to get anything off the ground. a much more dynamic process as to what works, what goes the furthest, than just who writes the best songs. i like infp music/feeling/artistry-articulation bc it gives me the nutrients i need but cannot internally produce/synthesize etc. i like enfps bc it feels like a very healthy and inspired creative partnership, same with entps but with darker more evil contrapuntal lines. i like intp ideas, bc they devolve into more detail, clarity, and focus than i am usually willing to commit to, and the combined power to deconstruct and understand how things usually work combined with an Ne/Fe extraversion can lead to very well-articulated results. but the distance and the battle for autonomy is usually a bit exhausting (not to say it couldn't work). also, isfps are pretty much great for everyone, very technically skilled and deeply humane, very intuitive for a sensor, etc, but by themselves they can sometimes lack focus and direction, whereas i see the big picture and am secretly an excellent director, facilitator, arranger, etc. intjs help keep me on track, plan my moves with more cutting efficiency, and focus on finding and attacking the problem, getting rid of extraneous details, etc.

 

[OrangeAppled]

Hmm...I don't see Fiona Apple as an ISFP. She seems to be an N in interviews, using lots of metaphors in her speech. She has also mentioned reading theory books on scientific topics (for some reason I'm thinking it was color / light theories). That seems very N to me as well.

I'd say she is an INFP possibly.

 

[the state i am in]

i don't know her that much, from her persona i can see that too. she seems somewhat complex, and more shy and reticent like an infp than an isfp whose aux Se keeps them afloat in the moment. do you have any lyrics or quotations?

candylandjoe, you're blowing my mind. does he have an entp sense of humor? i'm just making this up off the top of my head, but bill murray seems like a good example of entp to me.

 

[sleuthiness]

candylandjoe, you're blowing my mind. does he have an entp sense of humor? i'm just making this up off the top of my head, but bill murray seems like a good example of entp to me.

Bill is entp, the kidder. The casting for Groundhog Day (one of my favorite 3 movies) would make a lot more sense if so, because the other two main characters are alpha.

Prince though, he wasn't in a joking mood that night. A lot of Fe-ing the crowd (and a lot of it came off as futile), trying to get us going by getting women up on stage and covering some songs like "Come Together." Unity was a big theme, a lot of dancing and singing and clapping, so the show was really--when I think about it--a gigantic, pocked-drainin' black gospel preachin' from the then and current king of the rock n roll mountaintop.

And thanks to a chance run-in with a classmate after the Prince show, I was able to learn a lot about her and istjs that filled that fucking bar we went to. I was telling one of her friends (infp), shouting in her ear, that if I have to stand by and listen to the others (istjs) talk for another minute about snowboarding or whatever physical activity while she uses the restroom I was going wring my neck with her purse strap. So... istjs, guh.

Calvin Johnson is very clearly an istj. Simple, straight to the point, and makes really fucking boring coffin sawdust music that I should've never invested a penny in.

I'll explain my fetus thoughts on Neil Young et al. later tonight.

 

[sleuthiness]

While it's on my mind, that Colin Meloy guy is istj, too. Snorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrre.

 

[sleuthiness]

YouTube - Neil Young on Letterman

Do infjs care much about collecting old cars in general? Not at the top of most lists that I've read. If not, wouldn't it make a lot of sense for Neil Young to instead be estp?

I'm all about mixing up Superego and conflicting types.

 

[speculative]

Gah, too tired to read the whole 14 pages again but it looks like since I last checked, now no one can be considered to be an INFP who is a songwriter/musician? Everyone who is a songwriter/musician who deals with feelings must therefore be an INFJ?

 

[sleuthiness]

OKay, so tonight's thoughts:

fiona apple (isfp)
lenny kravitz (isfp)
ben harper (isfp)
jewel (isfp)
m ward (isfp)
jason pierce (isfp)
layne staley (isfp)
joni mitchell (isfp)

mark mathersbaugh (infj)
daniel johnston (infj)
will shef (infj)
paul simon (infj)
mars volta (infj)
shannon hoon (infp)
lou barlow (infp)
bill callahan (isfp)
will oldham (isfp)
arthur russell (infp)
calvin johnson (infp? fuck.)
neko case (intp)
john zorn (intp)
prince (entp)
jonathan richman (enfj)
brian eno (infj)

a few additions with a few reasons:
brian ferry (infp)
ariel pink (intj)
bill nelson of be bop deluxe (enfj)
momus (infj)
john howard (infj)
kevin blechdom (enfp)
shirley manson (enfp) - extroverted/thinks on her feet, silly hee haw enfp giggle
gibby haynes (estp)
josh homme (infp) - lives in the middle of nowhere, prefers metaphor, attempts to maintain harmony during concerts (very weak Te can be observed in these cases)

bill fay (infp)
kurt wagner of lambchop (enfj)
alex chilton (infp)
julian cope (infp)
bruce haack (ixfp)
martin fry of abc (enfj)
david thomas (entp)
scott miller of game theory/loud family (infp)
robyn hitchcock (infp)
kevin ayers (infp)
laura nyro (infj)
matt johnson of the the (infp)
adrian belew (isfp)
jeff lynne (entp)
marshall crenshaw (infp)
madonna (estp)
gary numan (infp)

Yellow Magic Orchestra members:
haruomi hosono (infp)
yukihiro takahashi (intp)
ryuichi sakamoto (infj)

dig in

 

[the state i am in]

Calvin Johnson is very clearly an istj. Simple, straight to the point, and makes really fucking boring coffin sawdust music that I should've never invested a penny in.

beat happening songs seem infp to me. indian summer, cry for a shadow? dreamy and jamboree? would YOUR dad EVER be caught DEAD listening to beat happening? i know my istj dad wouldn't!

While it's on my mind, that Colin Meloy guy is istj, too. Snorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrre.

i agree with the snore. the only song i ever liked by them was the crane wife 3. he seems like he could be pretty strong Si. and it feels like it might be really theatrical and performed like new pornographers but then isn't. lacks drama, feeling, intuition.

Do infjs care much about collecting old cars in general? Not at the top of most lists that I've read. If not, wouldn't it make a lot of sense for Neil Young to instead be estp?

I'm all about mixing up Superego and conflicting types.

i think introverts are more likely to be collectors than extraverts. i could be completely utterly stupidly wrong, and probably am. with that said neil is definitely an i and and f. the rest is where it breaks down for me. the way he sings, inflects, and is so infp stoic on the outside. i have the infp sense from him pretty strongly, but he could be an isfp. that's my big question right now with a lot of songwriters. aux Ne vs ter Ni. also, i am starting to think dominant Ni or Ne might just be too fucking crazy to write comprehensible songs that a large number of people will ever like.

Gah, too tired to read the whole 14 pages again but it looks like since I last checked, now no one can be considered to be an INFP who is a songwriter/musician? Everyone who is a songwriter/musician who deals with feelings must therefore be an INFJ?

i have no idea what you're talking about. infp is the largest category???? right now i'm trying to sort out infp vs isfp, who i think i drastically overlooked. and a lot of the infjs are just speculative, so to speak. typology is not a verifiable science and this thread needs more contributions from others to keep it in check.

OKay, so tonight's thoughts:

fiona apple (isfp)
lenny kravitz (isfp)
ben harper (isfp)
jewel (isfp)
m ward (isfp)
jason pierce (isfp)
layne staley (isfp)
joni mitchell (isfp)

mark mathersbaugh (infj)
daniel johnston (infj)
will shef (infj)
paul simon (infj)
mars volta (infj)
shannon hoon (infp)
lou barlow (infp)
bill callahan (isfp)
will oldham (isfp)
arthur russell (infp)
calvin johnson (infp? fuck.)
neko case (intp)
john zorn (intp)
prince (entp)
jonathan richman (enfj)
brian eno (infj)

a few additions with a few reasons:
brian ferry (infp)
ariel pink (intj)
bill nelson of be bop deluxe (enfj)
momus (infj)
john howard (infj)
kevin blechdom (enfp)
shirley manson (enfp) - extroverted/thinks on her feet, silly hee haw enfp giggle
gibby haynes (estp)
josh homme (infp) - lives in the middle of nowhere, prefers metaphor, attempts to maintain harmony during concerts (very weak Te can be observed in these cases)

bill fay (infp)
kurt wagner of lambchop (enfj)
alex chilton (infp)
julian cope (infp)
bruce haack (ixfp)
martin fry of abc (enfj)
david thomas (entp)
scott miller of game theory/loud family (infp)
robyn hitchcock (infp)
kevin ayers (infp)
laura nyro (infj)
matt johnson of the the (infp)
adrian belew (isfp)
jeff lynne (entp)
marshall crenshaw (infp)
madonna (estp)
gary numan (infp)

Yellow Magic Orchestra members:
haruomi hosono (infp)
yukihiro takahashi (intp)
ryuichi sakamoto (infj)

dig in

my infp friend LOVES alex chilton and robyn hitchcock.
madonna and gibby haynes as estps, yes definitely. do you associate estp with provocateur types?

ryuichi sakamoto i would like to check out... some day.

jonathan richman, you think he is dominant Fe? i don't know him that well other than the modern lovers record and his self-titled, but his songs don't have the intensity of feeling that i would expect from enfj. they are more cheeky. closer is my favorite jonathan richman song, and my own personal sex anthem.

please explain shannon hoon and lou barlow. actually shannon hoon just FEELS way more infp to me than j. sooooo much more. the songs are pretty drippy, and they don't really elucidate the context enough to make you feel like a j type would. it's not about roles it's more about what happens internally to HIM. lou barlow and j mascis both infps, hmm. that would explain why they couldn't get along at all, and then could, and then couldn't, and then could etc. will oldham as an isfp makes sense to me, he is not very writerly compared to songwriters i like (in the N sense). i'll see bonnie prince billy when they come into town, but i'm afraid i might fall asleep like an old person with diapers on trying to see a picture at the movie theatre. i'm also thinking the fiona apple infp/isfp thing is a good question. the song criminal, extraordinary machine, i see some strong intuition there. same old problem, again and again.

ps what are you talking about with superego? i've never made the leap as far as getting into that stuff and not feeling like robin williams in good will hunting.

 

[Cronkle]

Andre 3000 from OutKast?

ENFJ/ENFP?

E-talkative, doesn't seem shy
YouTube - Andre 3000 - "Are You Done Rapping?" - Semi-Pro

N/S; I can't ever tell, but I usually pick N for artists that I like (bias?) the way he dresses is N?

F- beams and smiles and is nice in interview

J/P not sure on this one

 

[OrangeAppled]

While it's on my mind, that Colin Meloy guy is istj, too. Snorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrre.

He so desperately wants to be an N too. What a poseur. :rolli:

shirley manson (enfp) - extroverted/thinks on her feet, silly hee haw enfp giggle

If you can call her evil, maniacal laugh a giggle . I definitely see her as ENFx of some kind. ENFP maybe, cuz I think she has Te. She is really blunt anyway.

 

[sleuthiness]

I think the fact that he was pulled over for doing 100+ on a Georgia highway solves that. His buddy has to be istp. 2+2=4.