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  1. #61
    Senior Member Valhallahereicome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    Heeeey there! I can come off a bit intense at times, please don't take any of my comments personally or in an offensive manner, I am just very direct and blunt but in all honesty well intended.

    Regarding the bolded above, I have a simple question specific to people having two sides to them. How many sides do you have to you? Do you present yourself with full on openness and total vulnerability to strangers and family alike?

    I myself am very open, but even I am aware that due to the nature of how life works and how variable people are, it is of benefit to have a side of you that deals with people that have not proven themselves to be part of your "cirlce of turst." [I love the movie, "Meet the Parents" Ha!!!]

    And despite sounding like a crab, I did offer you advice in my initial response, did you read that part? Seriously, do you think that might be something of benefit for you to try?

    Finally, please don't misconstrue me using language such as "chill out" or "attitude adjustment" as derogatory, I am a playful smart ass, and not an ogre. And you're right, I probably need to chill out too a little bit! Ha! Ok, following my own advice now, going outside to take nap in sun...

    Cheers to you, good luck in your quest to better understand people!

    All right, perhaps I was a bit quick off the gun. It's hard to pick up nuance in an internet forum!

    Hmm, do I have different sides to me... Not consciously. There's probably more of a continuum where as people get to know me they get more of the real opinions and less of the cheerful small talk. But the cheerful small talk is part of me too. Haha, I guess that should tell me something.

    As I said X number of posts ago, though - buried somewhere in this fat thread - after thinking about it a bit I've realized that a lot of the problem is that I am afraid of being rejected by the "shallow" people due to not being able to relate to them on their own level. I know I can't click with everyone, but instead of telling myself that I tend to blame myself for whatever goes wrong, and then I become really wary of people with whom I can predict the same thing happening again. It's easier to relate when you can see someone's genuine self right away, but I just get confused by the guarded "socially acceptable" side that a lot of people present.

    It is also partly an impatience to get to the deep stuff, and annoyance that I don't go there often enough or that people won't let me go there. But a lot of it is just not wanting any kind of social rejection. So I guess I'm kind of rejecting other people in advance.

    Yeah, I saw your advice. I'm actually part of 2 clubs already and yes, people do come off as less shallow when you're all working toward something you care about. I'm more worried about not disliking people in Starbucks or wherever based on the conversation I hear while they're waiting for their latte, because that's just an awful downer. Guess working toward that will involve a) Understanding that I'm only seeing their surface side and b) Getting over my own problems. But thanks for your advice, enjoy your nap.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valhallahereicome View Post
    Yeah it's definitely subjective, I don't see any right answer.

    As far as authenticity goes, though, people who keep their true thoughts and feelings inside during a conversation are being less authentic and real than people who express themselves fully. You're saying that people who have these "trivial" conversations are just being themselves; I would disagree. It seems that a lot of the time people are following a social script that reveals very little of their genuine selves. If that wasn't the case, then yes, they would be authentic.

    I'd reverse what you said in the last sentence. People going through an interaction following a socially-accepted "script" are searching to act as something they are not. People who let their real selves come to the surface are being authentic. I think you're misinterpreting the "search for authenticity" thing as searching for something outside of the person. The term "search" is misleading. It's more "stripping away" - of all the false layers that do not constitute one's real identity. Actually, even better would be "fighting off" all the outwardly imposed conventions that prevent one from expressing one's true self. "Inauthentic" means letting the conventions dominate your true self so that people interact with those instead of the real you.
    I see what your saying but I still disagree. Maybe wanting to follow the socially accepted script is part of who they are. To some it is more important to "get along" than it is to impose their uniqueness on the world. Some people authentically prefer to keep their innermost self to themselves. Perhaps also this is more about the s/n divide than anything else. Stripping away false layers to expose your true self is a rather abstract concept and quite possibly an exercise in futility or complete gibberish to many people. Perhaps also I hold these views because I have concluded that authenticity is never found until you stop looking for it. You can never become somthing you are constantly seeking. Most likely though it is because at my core I am a pragmatist. Unless I am going to seek to change others to fit the mold of how I believe they should be, I simply say live and let live.

  3. #63
    Senior Member placebo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank View Post
    The bolded portion was my point exactly. Actually I could argue both sides of this issue with equal conviction. It is highly subjective and could be viewed from many perspectives.

    The main point i was getting at in regards to your op was basically that because people are "shiny" and "happy" and have what you consider trivial conversations does not make them any less authentic than you or as you said fake. In keeping with the devils advocate theme one could argue that in fact they are more authentic than yourself as they are just being and you are searching to become something you don't feel you currently are.

    If it's authenticity, it's authenticity of superficiality. If one is truly happy and shiny inside of trivial conversations so often, it reveals a lack of a person. It suggests someone who is unconcerned with anything outside of their immediate world, who rarely questions things, searches for truth, or looks inside of themselves deeply, etc. It's of my opinion too that having these values is objectively better than not having them.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by placebo View Post
    If it's authenticity, it's authenticity of superficiality. If one is truly happy and shiny inside of trivial conversations so often, it reveals a lack of a person. It suggests someone who is unconcerned with anything outside of their immediate world, who rarely questions things, searches for truth, or looks inside of themselves deeply, etc. It's of my opinion too that having these values is objectively better than not having them.
    Or a person with different intellectual needs and ideas on what is trivial than you.

  5. #65
    Senior Member placebo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank View Post
    Or a person with different intellectual needs and ideas on what is trivial than you.
    I realised quite quickly that I shouldn't have used the word 'person', but something more like 'character'. I'm fully aware people have different needs, different standards, etc. and it's pretty much in people's nature, but that just adds to the confoundedness.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valhallahereicome View Post
    This has been bothering me a lot:

    I want to like people, I really do. I try to look for the good in people and I love it when people open up and really show themselves.

    So why do I immediately dislike the majority of the people I encounter?

    I'm talking less about people I actually talk to than ones whom I overhear talking to each other. On a college campus, I overhear a lot of conversations and there are two things that bother me the most:

    1) They are so TRIVIAL. No matter what the topic of conversation is, no one ever goes into real depth on it; it seems to be more of an excuse for a smiley, fake social interaction. No one ever says what they actually think, that is assuming that they do have deep thoughts on the matter.

    2) The ACCENTS. This is southern California, and the Valley Girl accent proliferates. Then again, I recorded an interview the other day and listened to it afterward and heard MYSELF talking with a Valley Girl accent and using about 4 "like"s in a sentence. That was embarrassing. Guess I shouldn't judge based on accents.

    These problems are almost universal and I find myself wanting to vigorously smash things after I listen to a few people talk like this. Less common but as bad or worse is 3) Meanspiritedness. I do understand that it's fun and bonding to be meanspirited with other people, but this is a tendency that should be fought against.

    When I talk to someone, it's generally easier to enjoy the conversation. Still, I meet too many people that I just can't relate to. Shiny, smiley, fake people. Probably a fourth to a third of the people my age that I meet are like this. I want to dig down beneath the surface and find something real that I can appreciate in them, but it's hard to penetrate that far down.

    So I end up thinking that there's something wrong with me - maybe if I were more approachable, people would be more genuine. Or maybe if I were able to appreciate people for who they are, I would like them better.

    Reading this over, it sounds very INFP. Anyone else have thoughts?
    Misdiagnosis: superior depth
    Diagnosis: chronic crankiness
    Prescription: a more fulfilling existence

  7. #67
    actinomycetes raindancing's Avatar
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    I actually hardly ever dislike people from first impressions.

    My view of people is more that they are interesting, I like to understand them. To get at the truth of a person, you need to be dispassionate.

    There are things that people do or say that can cause me to feel some amount of irritation, but I don't translate this into a judgement of any kind. If someone says something that upsets me, I would either think it's my fault or look at their motive for saying it - try to understand them.

    I feel like it would be wrong, in a moral sense, for me to judge people. Even once I get to know someone, I don't often judge them.
    I've felt like this for as long as I can remember, even when I was very young I didn't judge people. I didn't even judge or dislike the girls who used to bully me.

    Having said all that, my attitude towards the expression of any irritation I feel has changed slightly since being married to an INTP (i've been married for 10 years, but have started to notice these changes in probably the last 4 or 5 years)
    He has never had a problem verbally blasting people. When I first met him, this was quite a shock - I had never heard anyone say those sorts of things when they weren't actually being nasty.
    He doesn't ever mean it personally, it's more humorous observations (of the sarcastic sort), and he says them without applying judgement.

    Anyway, eventually I felt like I could also say things about people, negative things, things that I would never ever say to someone else because I know they would misunderstand them for a judgement. It's not judgement, it's more an observation, possibly true, possibly not.
    I think some people have a hard time understanding this, I have seen my husband misunderstood in this way many times.

    Even so, there still have been a handful of people over my life that I would actually say I dislike. I guess. Even saying that is hard!
    It's more like they irritate me such a degree that I feel my irritation becomes irrational. I go off on rants about them (to my husband's vast amusement), seething with furry. Yes, I really, really don't like being around them. But to say I don't like them, as a person... I don't know if I could say that. I don't think I have the right to make that sort of judgment.

    One last thing I've noticed, the people who put me into such a frenzy seem from what I can tell, to have very overt Te. The in your face sort, that makes lots and lots of judgements. Not too compatible with my world view i suppose.

    EDIT: Just remembered something, I think it's partially about expectations. I don't have any.
    EDIT 2: Well, not many.
    “Can a man of perception respect himself at all?”
    ― Fyodor Dostoyevsky

  8. #68
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Re: the OP--I think it's pretty easy to come to the conclusion that most people are shallow/surface if you just talk to them for a few minutes. When I meet new people, I throw up my smiley face and make pleasantries for a while, partly as a means of energy conservation, partly as a defense mechanism. I don't WANT to have a deep conversation with everyone I meet. It would wear me out. And I'd be sucked into whiling away 30 minutes of my life where a "Hi, how are you?" would have been sufficient.

    Sometimes there's a good mix of people, and you get an interesting conversation going, and then I'm more willing to really put myself out there. But I'm not "going deep" for someone I've just met, unless there's just something intrinsic about their personality mixing with my personality, and it just happens. And I'm mistrustful of people who want me to share deep stuff about myself when I barely know them. If they really want to know me, they'll hang around long enough for me to tell them when I'm ready.
    Something Witty

  9. #69
    actinomycetes raindancing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    I throw up my smiley face and make pleasantries for a while, partly as a means of energy conservation, partly as a defense mechanism. I don't WANT to have a deep conversation with everyone I meet. It would wear me out.
    That's so true.

    Most of the time when I have gotten into a deeper conversation with someone right after meeting them it has been because they have something that's going on in their life that they want to talk about. Maybe it's just the people I have engaged with, but they seem to want me to provide them with a lot of Fe type feedback - very tiring!

    And I certainly wouldn't want to start up a deep conversation about myself with someone I had just met, way to much rejection potential.
    “Can a man of perception respect himself at all?”
    ― Fyodor Dostoyevsky

  10. #70
    Senior Member Valhallahereicome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by disregard View Post
    Misdiagnosis: superior depth
    Diagnosis: chronic crankiness
    Prescription: a more fulfilling existence
    You're so insightful. Please, take your insights somewhere else.

    Quote Originally Posted by raindancing View Post
    I actually hardly ever dislike people from first impressions.

    My view of people is more that they are interesting, I like to understand them. To get at the truth of a person, you need to be dispassionate.

    There are things that people do or say that can cause me to feel some amount of irritation, but I don't translate this into a judgement of any kind. If someone says something that upsets me, I would either think it's my fault or look at their motive for saying it - try to understand them.

    [...]

    Even so, there still have been a handful of people over my life that I would actually say I dislike. I guess. Even saying that is hard!
    It's more like they irritate me such a degree that I feel my irritation becomes irrational. I go off on rants about them (to my husband's vast amusement), seething with furry. Yes, I really, really don't like being around them. But to say I don't like them, as a person... I don't know if I could say that. I don't think I have the right to make that sort of judgment.

    One last thing I've noticed, the people who put me into such a frenzy seem from what I can tell, to have very overt Te. The in your face sort, that makes lots and lots of judgements. Not too compatible with my world view i suppose.
    Actually, I think that irritation is more appropriate to describe what I feel as well. There's difference between that and the real dislike I feel for a select few people I actually know. Te doesn't bother me; maybe Se does? Not sure, hard to tell. I don't know that much about the functions.

    "Dispassionate" is a great way to approach dealing with new people. That's something I'll try to cultivate in myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Re: the OP--I think it's pretty easy to come to the conclusion that most people are shallow/surface if you just talk to them for a few minutes. When I meet new people, I throw up my smiley face and make pleasantries for a while, partly as a means of energy conservation, partly as a defense mechanism. I don't WANT to have a deep conversation with everyone I meet. It would wear me out. And I'd be sucked into whiling away 30 minutes of my life where a "Hi, how are you?" would have been sufficient.

    Sometimes there's a good mix of people, and you get an interesting conversation going, and then I'm more willing to really put myself out there. But I'm not "going deep" for someone I've just met, unless there's just something intrinsic about their personality mixing with my personality, and it just happens. And I'm mistrustful of people who want me to share deep stuff about myself when I barely know them. If they really want to know me, they'll hang around long enough for me to tell them when I'm ready.
    That makes sense. I can understand your point of view. For me, it's the opposite - deep conversations energize me and "Hi, how are you" conversations tire me out. But of course everyone is different.

    EDIT: Saw raindancing's post too. Oh yeah, I've definitely had people try to spill their problems on me way too soon. That's not the kind of deep conversation I'm talking about though.

    As an example of an ideal interaction: A few weeks ago I had to share the table at a cafe with a guy and he struck up a conversation about the book I was reading, which was something fairly philosophical and "deep." Then we quickly progressed to politics and spent an hour and a half debating economic issues and the pros and cons of a popular democracy. That was fun! It doesn't always have to get that intense, but I do love it when people share their opinions.

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