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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank View Post
    The desires are what I am referring too. Not the half-assed or misinformed way people go about fulfilling them. Too better frame your question.

    In my opinion the person who pursues money and comfort is no more selfish than a person who devotes their life to volunteering in a poor, impoverished nation. They are both, first and foremost, fulfilling an inner need.
    I realize this is off topic, but I have this argument with many people. It's quite easy to confuse being self-motivated (motivated to fulfill some inner drive) and being selfish. Everyone is self-motivated. Conflating the two notions is often a way for the selfish to absolve themselves of criticism (not saying that's what you are doing). It also makes the logical error of equivocation (In this particular case, defining a word to be what you want and then arguing that the common notion has the properties of your custom definition).

    But as I see it the common notion of selfish (that is the notion refered to by people ) Being "selfish" or "selfless" is:

    1) A matter of degree--it is not an all or nothing thing, but has a graduated scale.
    2) It is established by means of social norms--perhaps something that NT's have issue with. But ultimately, one has to weigh the benefits of a persons actions for those other than himself/herself, and ultimately "benefit" is subjective.
    3) The core of the definition of selvless vs. selfish then, is simply how much actions purposefully benefit others. A simple definition that is in concert with the official definition of "selish":
    1: concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself : seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others
    See the difference in bold between self-motivation and selfishness--the disregard for others.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    Gah, technically you are correct, I must concede, but, meh, I still don't like it.

    Yes, technically we are all selfish, and altruism itself is still very much so rooted in selfish desires, and even though one's acts may be selfless, they do in fact work to fulfill selfish desires.

    But I commend, admire and love those who adopt or exhibit more cooperative, kind modes of behavior. Nobody likes a selfish prick, and lord knows the world is chalk full of them!
    You're making this too complicated. If you account for others, even if it is your desire to do so, it is less selfish than to not.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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  2. #52
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valhallahereicome View Post

    I'd also like to hear ideas on whether most people really are capable of a rich inner life. One friend, an INFP, agreed; a couple others disagreed. If you disagree, do you think that introspection is something people can lack at birth or is it something that they stifle over time?



    Haha, interesting. I was talking with a friend the other day, a relative newcomer to L.A., and I asked him if people were really more shallow here than other places. He said no - people are the same everywhere. I tend to agree with him on principle, but I guess it's possible that different types of cities attract different types of people.
    I think maybe it was costrin? who posted a list of the funtcions and he said Se was the function that least processes information before feeding it to Ji. I have been watching many of the ESTPs that I work with. They live in the present moment and seem to exhibit no internal processing of much of what they do/think. I will try and talk with them and be left confused as to how they could not see the big pattern given how glaring it is. I then step them through the pieces and they will understand but it so very odd. I do not think they have the internal lives that Ns have any I think we NFs may be the exceptions, not the rule with our excess of internal life.

    I would like to hear an SJ/SP's thoughts on what they consider a rich inner life.

    Oh, hate is a strong word, I agree. dislike is really the correct term

  3. #53
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IDK123 View Post
    I like your perspective on things. It's refreshing and different!
    Hey thanks! I appreciate that! Cheers to you!

  4. #54
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valhallahereicome View Post
    Hoo boy! Obviously I didn't come across to you very well, Alex. That's all right, hopefully you're not judging me based on *ahem* your first impression, which I take it is one of constant gloom and doom.

    No, I'm pretty smiley and happy myself, and I am sometimes curious as to whether I come off as being superficial as well. Don't think so - I tend to be too sarcastic and blunt, but then again who knows. Like I said, I'm TRYING not to judge, because I know that the surface tells only part of the story. It just seems to be ingrained in me to take people at face value. That's something I'm trying to overcome and I was actually asking for advice on how to do so.

    The "chill out a bit" and attitude adjustment stuff wasn't exactly helpful, because clearly I already know I need to do that, but thanks anyway for your lovely comments. Maybe you should consider taking your own advice at times.
    Heeeey there! I can come off a bit intense at times, please don't take any of my comments personally or in an offensive manner, I am just very direct and blunt but in all honesty well intended.

    Regarding the bolded above, I have a simple question specific to people having two sides to them. How many sides do you have to you? Do you present yourself with full on openness and total vulnerability to strangers and family alike?

    I myself am very open, but even I am aware that due to the nature of how life works and how variable people are, it is of benefit to have a side of you that deals with people that have not proven themselves to be part of your "cirlce of turst." [I love the movie, "Meet the Parents" Ha!!!]

    And despite sounding like a crab, I did offer you advice in my initial response, did you read that part? Seriously, do you think that might be something of benefit for you to try?

    Finally, please don't misconstrue me using language such as "chill out" or "attitude adjustment" as derogatory, I am a playful smart ass, and not an ogre. And you're right, I probably need to chill out too a little bit! Ha! Ok, following my own advice now, going outside to take nap in sun...

    Cheers to you, good luck in your quest to better understand people!


  5. #55
    12 and a half weeks BerberElla's Avatar
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    I have always found that my initial response to a person I have disliked, has been well founded.

    I allowed other people to convince me at times that it was unfair to judge someone off of first impressions, and so I over ruled my instinct and gave those people a chance, only to be hurt quite badly later on in the exact same way my gut was warning me about.

    Now I listen to my instinct, and if my instincts have a strong reaction to someone I go with that.
    Echo - "So are you trying to say she is Evil"

    DeWitt - "Something far worse, she's an Idealist"

    Berb's Johari Berb's Nohari

  6. #56
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by happy puppy View Post
    I think maybe it was costrin? who posted a list of the funtcions and he said Se was the function that least processes information before feeding it to Ji. I have been watching many of the ESTPs that I work with. They live in the present moment and seem to exhibit no internal processing of much of what they do/think. I will try and talk with them and be left confused as to how they could not see the big pattern given how glaring it is. I then step them through the pieces and they will understand but it so very odd. I do not think they have the internal lives that Ns have any I think we NFs may be the exceptions, not the rule with our excess of internal life.

    I would like to hear an SJ/SP's thoughts on what they consider a rich inner life.
    Yes I did write that, does this mean I'm becoming famous? Yes Se does do the least amount of interpretation, but of course there is value in this "untainted" information, and yet disadvantages, as they don't see what we may think is obvious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Valhallahereicome View Post
    Hmm... Interesting idea. You're equalizing everyone using the "there are no real altruists" argument. But what if we don't use selfishness as the sole criterion for determining the worthiness of a need or desire? Then we're back to seeing varying levels of value in what people choose for their goals.

    [...]

    Of course, the value of helping people is subjective. But so is the value of selflessness. In fact, any value is going to be subjective, but a person who holds it will naturally judge others according to that value. CaptainChick - it seems to me - values good actions toward other human beings above material benefits, and so in her worldview people who are interested in performing good deeds are worthier than people who are interested in more material things.
    All true. Values are all inherently subjective. Each person and each society has different views on what is right and wrong. Coming to an agreement on these things is probably next to impossible. However, just realizing that they are in fact subjective and open to negotiation is the first step.
    "All humour has a foundation of truth."
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  7. #57
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    see I knew what was good for me!!!!

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valhallahereicome View Post
    Hmm... Interesting idea. You're equalizing everyone using the "there are no real altruists" argument. But what if we don't use selfishness as the sole criterion for determining the worthiness of a need or desire? Then we're back to seeing varying levels of value in what people choose for their goals.

    For example, say we value interactions where people help others over interactions where people don't help others. Then, we can say that an inner need to help other people is worthier than a need that doesn't involve helping them. The person who needs to help people to be happy will act much more according to our values over his lifetime than the person who is mostly interested in a nice car, a big house, and a hot girlfriend.

    (Sorry for the computer-like sentences, I'm trying to make my point really clear because this is a murky subject for me to address.)

    Of course, the value of helping people is subjective. But so is the value of selflessness. In fact, any value is going to be subjective, but a person who holds it will naturally judge others according to that value. CaptainChick - it seems to me - values good actions toward other human beings above material benefits, and so in her worldview people who are interested in performing good deeds are worthier than people who are interested in more material things.

    Now, the obvious argument here is that everyone has a different worldview, and thus a person who values material goods above helping people has the right to judge me because I'd prefer a volunteer experience helping the sick over going on a bomb trip to Europe and spending lots of cash. And this is true - he does have the right to judge me according to his values.

    However, in my worldview truth and goodness are more important than superficiality and being on top, and therefore I will judge people according to those values. It's pointless to expect me to be objective, because, well, these are my values and they frame how I see the world. My values are central to me and they're more important than objectivity.
    (Ok, in the last paragraph I'm kind of playing devil's advocate. My values aren't so strong that I don't see any merit to objectivity. And I don't really want to judge people. I'm mostly trying to argue with you. )
    The bolded portion was my point exactly. Actually I could argue both sides of this issue with equal conviction. It is highly subjective and could be viewed from many perspectives.

    The main point i was getting at in regards to your op was basically that because people are "shiny" and "happy" and have what you consider trivial conversations does not make them any less authentic than you or as you said fake. In keeping with the devils advocate theme one could argue that in fact they are more authentic than yourself as they are just being and you are searching to become something you don't feel you currently are.

  9. #59
    Senior Member Wild horses's Avatar
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    I must admit, this very rarely happens to me,,, however, during the rare times that it does I actively try and like the person as I somehow think it's unfair to dislike them without good reason, however, my instincts are usually proved correct much to my misfortune
    ... couldn't drag me away

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  10. #60
    Senior Member Valhallahereicome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank View Post
    The bolded portion was my point exactly. Actually I could argue both sides of this issue with equal conviction. It is highly subjective and could be viewed from many perspectives.

    The main point i was getting at in regards to your op was basically that because people are "shiny" and "happy" and have what you consider trivial conversations does not make them any less authentic than you or as you said fake. In keeping with the devils advocate theme one could argue that in fact they are more authentic than yourself as they are just being and you are searching to become something you don't feel you currently are.
    Yeah it's definitely subjective, I don't see any right answer.

    As far as authenticity goes, though, people who keep their true thoughts and feelings inside during a conversation are being less authentic and real than people who express themselves fully. You're saying that people who have these "trivial" conversations are just being themselves; I would disagree. It seems that a lot of the time people are following a social script that reveals very little of their genuine selves. If that wasn't the case, then yes, they would be authentic.

    I'd reverse what you said in the last sentence. People going through an interaction following a socially-accepted "script" are searching to act as something they are not. People who let their real selves come to the surface are being authentic. I think you're misinterpreting the "search for authenticity" thing as searching for something outside of the person. The term "search" is misleading. It's more "stripping away" - of all the false layers that do not constitute one's real identity. Actually, even better would be "fighting off" all the outwardly imposed conventions that prevent one from expressing one's true self. "Inauthentic" means letting the conventions dominate your true self so that people interact with those instead of the real you.

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