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  1. #41
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    WHAT THE HELL?!?!?!?!

    Snap out of it, my NFP brethren!!!!

    Being rejected by superficial nimrods is, like, the pinnacle of all compliments!!!

    Confidence, open-mindedness and sincerity are key when dealing with other people, including superficial people as well.

    Lol, I love when I'm in the company of some name-dropping, insipid, pooper-scooper who so valiantly attempts to gain my approval along with a couple expected "Ooohs", and "aaahhs", by me, which they sadly don't receive.

    I am an Angeleno, born and raised, and you can't let these shallow toolboxes get to you, they're hilariously pathetic at best, and wretchedly pretentious at worst.

    Please, never, EVER, attempt to, or desire to gain these people's approval or acceptance, please, I beg of you!!!
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    Gah, technically you are correct, I must concede, but, meh, I still don't like it.

    Yes, technically we are all selfish, and altruism itself is still very much so rooted in selfish desires, and even though one's acts may be selfless, they do in fact work to fulfill selfish desires.

    But I commend, admire and love those who adopt or exhibit more cooperative, kind modes of behavior. Nobody likes a selfish prick, and lord knows the world is chalk full of them!
    I guess we got a little off topic there. You enfps are a fiery lot! You and my girlfriend, a fellow enfp, would get along great.

    In regards to your last statement, to be human is to be a selfish prick. Some are just more overt about it.

  3. #43
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    Hmmm....believe or not, when meeting people for the first time, and talking with them (IRL), I'm not often that far off in character assessment. I give most people a chance though, they just aren't necessarily admitted into the "inner" circle.
    It's really hard to explain to people who don't understand....I always thought I'd make a really good criminal profiler though, and I just know the people I will get long with and people I won't. It's not about being open minded or any of that stuff, or it being based on looks and my prejudices. I just know.
    I don't feel like I've missed out, my friends are wide and varied, and come from all walks of life. It's not about my authenticity etc...It just is.
    I have friends who think I'm mildly psychic for this reason alone...I can't explain how I do it. I'm not going to second guess my intuition now, I've learnt too many lessons on that score.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  4. #44
    Senior Member Valhallahereicome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank View Post
    The desires are what I am referring too. Not the half-assed or misinformed way people go about fulfilling them. Too better frame your question.

    In my opinion the person who pursues money and comfort is no more selfish than a person who devotes their life to volunteering in a poor, impoverished nation. They are both, first and foremost, fulfilling an inner need.
    Hmm... Interesting idea. You're equalizing everyone using the "there are no real altruists" argument. But what if we don't use selfishness as the sole criterion for determining the worthiness of a need or desire? Then we're back to seeing varying levels of value in what people choose for their goals.

    For example, say we value interactions where people help others over interactions where people don't help others. Then, we can say that an inner need to help other people is worthier than a need that doesn't involve helping them. The person who needs to help people to be happy will act much more according to our values over his lifetime than the person who is mostly interested in a nice car, a big house, and a hot girlfriend.

    (Sorry for the computer-like sentences, I'm trying to make my point really clear because this is a murky subject for me to address.)

    Of course, the value of helping people is subjective. But so is the value of selflessness. In fact, any value is going to be subjective, but a person who holds it will naturally judge others according to that value. CaptainChick - it seems to me - values good actions toward other human beings above material benefits, and so in her worldview people who are interested in performing good deeds are worthier than people who are interested in more material things.

    Now, the obvious argument here is that everyone has a different worldview, and thus a person who values material goods above helping people has the right to judge me because I'd prefer a volunteer experience helping the sick over going on a bomb trip to Europe and spending lots of cash. And this is true - he does have the right to judge me according to his values.

    However, in my worldview truth and goodness are more important than superficiality and being on top, and therefore I will judge people according to those values. It's pointless to expect me to be objective, because, well, these are my values and they frame how I see the world. My values are central to me and they're more important than objectivity.

    (Ok, in the last paragraph I'm kind of playing devil's advocate. My values aren't so strong that I don't see any merit to objectivity. And I don't really want to judge people. I'm mostly trying to argue with you. )

  5. #45
    jump sleuthiness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    WHAT THE HELL?!?!?!?!

    Snap out of it, my NFP brethren!!!!

    Being rejected by superficial nimrods is, like, the pinnacle of all compliments!!!

    Confidence, open-mindedness and sincerity are key when dealing with other people, including superficial people as well.

    Lol, I love when I'm in the company of some name-dropping, insipid, pooper-scooper who so valiantly attempts to gain my approval along with a couple expected "Ooohs", and "aaahhs", by me, which they sadly don't receive.

    I am an Angeleno, born and raised, and you can't let these shallow toolboxes get to you, they're hilariously pathetic at best, and wretchedly pretentious at worst.

    Please, never, EVER, attempt to, or desire to gain these people's approval or acceptance, please, I beg of you!!!
    I %$%*(&)$* LOVE YOU!

  6. #46
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by candylandjoe View Post
    I %$%*(&)$* LOVE YOU!
    Pfft, not nearly as much as I love your avatar!!!
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  7. #47
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    I'm a MALE, just because I like cats doesn't mean I'm a girl.
    LOL!!!!

    Reading this made my day!!!
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  8. #48
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valhallahereicome View Post
    Hmm... Interesting idea. You're equalizing everyone using the "there are no real altruists" argument. But what if we don't use selfishness as the sole criterion for determining the worthiness of a need or desire? Then we're back to seeing varying levels of value in what people choose for their goals.

    For example, say we value interactions where people help others over interactions where people don't help others. Then, we can say that an inner need to help other people is worthier than a need that doesn't involve helping them. The person who needs to help people to be happy will act much more according to our values over his lifetime than the person who is mostly interested in a nice car, a big house, and a hot girlfriend.

    (Sorry for the computer-like sentences, I'm trying to make my point really clear because this is a murky subject for me to address.)

    Of course, the value of helping people is subjective. But so is the value of selflessness. In fact, any value is going to be subjective, but a person who holds it will naturally judge others according to that value. CaptainChick - it seems to me - values good actions toward other human beings above material benefits, and so in her worldview people who are interested in performing good deeds are worthier than people who are interested in more material things.

    Now, the obvious argument here is that everyone has a different worldview, and thus a person who values material goods above helping people has the right to judge me because I'd prefer a volunteer experience helping the sick over going on a bomb trip to Europe and spending lots of cash. And this is true - he does have the right to judge me according to his values.

    However, in my worldview truth and goodness are more important than superficiality and being on top, and therefore I will judge people according to those values. It's pointless to expect me to be objective, because, well, these are my values and they frame how I see the world. My values are central to me and they're more important than objectivity.

    (Ok, in the last paragraph I'm kind of playing devil's advocate. My values aren't so strong that I don't see any merit to objectivity. And I don't really want to judge people. I'm mostly trying to argue with you. )
    To quote candylandjoe, "I %$%*(&)$* LOVE YOU!"

    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  9. #49
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    Valhallahereicome, not specifically talking about your example, generally. There is no objectivity that is is based on subjectivity to some degree. When I analyse my Fi's positives and negatives, contemplating for my own utilisation of it, not asking others to do so, I am unsure how it is with others. In terms of subjectivity of values, I try to analyse the methodologies of values and how it is actualised in finer aspects in reality, relatively with and without an advanced value system, to have an internal debate, these are hypothetical questions for me in my mind and on forums etc, this might be a facet of Fi that I haven't realised. I have much respect for those who hold to universal, humantarian values. There always is a value criteria for everything in reality. I internally analyse the other cognitive processes aswell.

    In terms of selflessness, definition can vary greatly between people, depending on the internal and external criteria. For me highest capacity selflessness would be acts of kindness for solely well being of humanity with little to no expectation of gain, as I can see, there are varying degrees, it is impossible to negate the effect it has on oneself, since the human mind, body, soul is always affected by constant stimuili, and such endeavours will also act as a positive stimulus. If any reward there is it all, is that it makes you happy to see others happy.

  10. #50
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valhallahereicome View Post
    You really can't lump in triviality with skin color and class. People are generally averse to judgments made on the latter two because race and class are things that people can't help, and that have nothing to do with who they truly are. Triviality, or lack thereof, is an actual part of someone's character. Are you saying that we can't judge people based on the content of their character? How un-MLK-ish.

    Also, where did I say that they don't have a right to be trivial? Exactly what does that mean to you? All I said was that I instinctively disliked them for this trait. I certainly am not planning to start a movement to rehabilitate trivial-seeming people, or kick them out of school, or whatever. If you mean that I am too intolerant of them inside my own mind - on the contrary, I actually want to understand where they're coming from and relate to them better. I would prefer NOT to dislike them.

    Glad that others do relate.

    Tibby - Good point about not trusting first impressions. I doubt that I come off all that great in the first few minutes that someone meets me. It's good to keep an open mind for at least the first few interactions.

    BlackCat - Definitely relate on expecting too much out of people. But I'm not sure how you see meanspiritedness? What I meant was when girls bond over saying nasty things about someone who's not present. It's probably different for guys, though.

    Haha, I can actually recall times in my past when I'm pretty sure people were judging me for seeming trivial. I know I come off as loud and silly and sometimes ditzy, and if you saw me at a party you would never know I had more than two thoughts rattling around inside my little brain. Yet another reason to hold off on the judgment.

    Any advice on how to force yourself to keep judgment at bay?
    Nothing has changed from the time of the old Cretans.
    I do relate. Honestly.
    I never said you did not write a good post.

    I find trivial people boring, too.
    Do I have the right to find them boring?
    Yes!
    It seems you are right, then.

    There is no objective right.
    Right is a double bind.
    An odd number.

    The old Cretans had a labyrinth.
    There was only one way out.
    It was the way in.

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