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  1. #1
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Default Possible explination of INFJ's and Ni at their worst.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft
    I'd always wondered how you INFJs reconcile the inherently ruthless nature of Ni with having Fe as your secondary function.
    I remember him saying it. I would say that I try to find an ideal, and find fulfillment in other's accepting my ideals. In a sense, I want to control other people's feelings and perception of me. The most vivid imagining I've ever had about this I've ever had was one where I swept away the entire world with a wave of my hand, and created a new one filled with androids who would feel whatever I wanted them to, and who all accepted my ideals. Basically, I want to control people's emotions. I'm not satisfied with obedience or objective goals. I want to control their hearts, I want to make them care about my ideals as much as I do. That is how I feel. I would never try to do something like that in real life because of how difficult it would be, and how much I would be disliked, but I can't honestly say that I wouldn't do something like that if I had the ability. But then, have you ever heard the saying, "Absolute power corrupts absolutely?" Basically, my desire not to be disliked prevents me from trying too hard to force my ideals on people, but I do hold ideals. However, if I became neurotic somehow, there are several ways that it could be reconciled. Take Mithos Yggdrasil from Tales of Symphonia, for instance (I actually believe he's an INFJ who was pushed too far):

    * By using the Exspheres to eliminate the different bloods that flow within elves and humans, everyone will become the same lifeless beings. Discrimination will vanish. That is the grand age I strive for.

    * [Explaining why he wants to turn people into Lifeless Beings] People fear and hate what is not normal. They are scared of those that are different. Then the solution is for everyone to become the same.

    * With revolution comes sacrifice. If you cannot understand that, then you deserve to die with the others.

    * [Mocking the group's efforts after leaving Altessa's house] No life should be born for the sole purpose of dying? What do you think those Exspheres are that you’re using?

    * [After Lloyd tells him that his plan will result in the loss of innocent life] Human! Don't tell me what's right and wrong!

    * Why do you interfere? We both want the same thing! I just wanted to save the world and my sister!

    * [At Genis and Raine, the Judged] Is it a sin to be weak hearted? Not everyone's strong. Not everyone can stand being despised.

    * [At Presea and Regal, the Fugitive] And thus, you forget the past… The countless lives that were lost... and the pain of those that suffered. Crimes must be met with punishment.

    * [Before the final batttle] Do you think I'm going to beg for forgiveness? Ridiculous! There is no Goddess, so I will continue to pursue my ideals. If there is no place where I can live, and if I've been denied my Age of Lifeless Beings... then the only thing left for me, is to build a new world on Derris-Kharlan. A world just for my sister and me!

    * [Explaining his resolve after being reduced to half health in his first form] My sister means everything to me. I won't let any of you stand in my way. I'll revert this entire world back to nothingness.

    * [After his first form is defeated] My dream of a world for my sister and me...

    * [Last words]Farewell, my shadow, you who stand at the end of the path I chose not to follow. I wanted my own world, so I don't regret my choice. I would make the same choice all over again. I will continue to choose this path!

    * Genis... Don't betray me...

    * We're better off casting aside such filth and becoming lifeless beings.

    * None of you understand how I feel!

    * [After Lloyd argues that vengeance does not solve problems] That is merely logic. People are not moved by logic.

    * [After Lloyd asks his name] People need not introduce themselves to a dog. [Lloyd, understandably, protests] Fine. I will tell you my name, wretched human. I am Yggdrasil, leader of Cruxis. ...And the Desians.

  2. #2
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    I would say that I try to find an ideal, and find fulfillment in other's accepting my ideals. In a sense, I want to control other people's feelings and perception of me. The most vivid imagining I've ever had about this I've ever had was one where I swept away the entire world with a wave of my hand, and created a new one filled with androids who would feel whatever I wanted them to, and who all accepted my ideals. Basically, I want to control people's emotions. I'm not satisfied with obedience or objective goals. I want to control their hearts, I want to make them care about my ideals as much as I do. That is how I feel. I would never try to do something like that in real life because of how difficult it would be, and how much I would be disliked, but I can't honestly say that I wouldn't do something like that if I had the ability. But then, have you ever heard the saying, "Absolute power corrupts absolutely?" Basically, my desire not to be disliked prevents me from trying too hard to force my ideals on people, but I do hold ideals.
    Very interesting, athenian200. Thanks for sharing.

  3. #3
    Wait, what? Varelse's Avatar
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    Interesting. It does make some sense...do you think this is something that just INFJs tend towards, or would other NFs do this as well?
    We are not poets
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  4. #4
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Basically, I want to control people's emotions. I'm not satisfied with obedience or objective goals. I want to control their hearts, I want to make them care about my ideals as much as I do. That is how I feel. I would never try to do something like that in real life because of how difficult it would be, and how much I would be disliked, but I can't honestly say that I wouldn't do something like that if I had the ability. But then, have you ever heard the saying, "Absolute power corrupts absolutely?" Basically, my desire not to be disliked prevents me from trying too hard to force my ideals on people, but I do hold ideals. However, if I became neurotic somehow, there are several ways that it could be reconciled. Take Mithos Yggdrasil from Tales of Symphonia, for instance (I actually believe he's an INFJ who was pushed too far):
    My husband (INfj) is like the underlined part but he is not so worried about people not liking him. Instead his fear is that he does not have the charisma needed to lead people. Plus he would have to get too much out of his introversion so he doesn't want to take the trouble.

    When I have said that the world will not change until enough people take it upon themselves to change their own behavior from the inside out that view depressed him because he said people won't do that on their own. I said that is the only way lasting change will take place and then he said we are all doomed then.

    ETA. He doesn't want a world full of androids and robots, just world where people aren't so darned passive and masochistic.

  5. #5
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    I want a world of "Why yes we can all get along!"
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  6. #6
    Wait, what? Varelse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    My husband (INfj) is like the underlined part but he is not so worried about people not liking him. Instead his fear is that he does not have the charisma needed to lead people. Plus he would have to get too much out of his introversion so he doesn't want to take the trouble.
    Elwin seems to be a bit more interested in having people like him, and I've gotten the impression that he doesn't know quite what to do when his charisma doesn't work out-trying harder to please the person and then snapping when it reaches a point where he considers his behavior hypocritcal does seem a bit better than continuing it incessantly....
    We are not poets
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  7. #7
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varelse View Post
    Elwin seems to be a bit more interested in having people like him, and I've gotten the impression that he doesn't know quite what to do when his charisma doesn't work out-trying harder to please the person and then snapping when it reaches a point where he considers his behavior hypocritcal does seem a bit better than continuing it incessantly....
    Mine takes the hardline "well then I don't give a damn if you like me or not" when faced with a failure to persuade others (even though he does). It is interesting I just read about this:

    INFJ - Introverted Intuition with Feeling

    Male INFJs have a more problematic situation because the qualities naturally preferred by INFJs are not those traditionally considered to be "male." To counter the image of being weak, male INFJs can become stubborn, often to a degree disproportionate tot he situation at hand. They are capable of taking a seemingly small issue and making it seem as if the entire world--or at least their masculinity--were riding on the outcome.
    This is so much him it sent chills down my spine.

  8. #8
    Wait, what? Varelse's Avatar
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    Interesting. Elwin doesn't seem so interested in that. He does seem to think of maintaining relationships as one of his highest priorities....

    ENFJ - Extraverted Feeling with Intuition

    "As a general rule, people are central and important to ENFJs. This means that if people's needs end up in conflict with rules and schedules, the ENFJ will generally put people first--though not without a sense of martyrdom or possibly guilt."

    "Peaceful and joyful living are certainly a goal--and an expectation. However, achieving that goal generally requires either following the ENFJ's good intentions or letting the ENFJ show you "the error of your ways" and redirect you toward "real joy"--whatever the ENFJ deems that to be."

    "May sweep problems under the rug when in conflict "
    Elwin tends towards all of these...the second one tends to be especially annoying. Somewhat of him imposing his views about what will make me happy on me...when I don't think he knows what will as well as I do. Maybe it's the NFJs that are more likely to try to impose their views on others, with an intention of doing such for the good of others?
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  9. #9
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    I would say that I try to find an ideal, and find fulfillment in other's accepting my ideals. In a sense, I want to control other people's feelings and perception of me. The most vivid imagining I've ever had about this I've ever had was one where I swept away the entire world with a wave of my hand, and created a new one filled with androids who would feel whatever I wanted them to, and who all accepted my ideals. Basically, I want to control people's emotions. I'm not satisfied with obedience or objective goals. I want to control their hearts, I want to make them care about my ideals as much as I do. That is how I feel.
    That is my deepest possible nightmare. Being on either end of control makes me want to grasp my head, shut my eyes, and run as fast as I can not caring where that leads me. I have been in authority positions many times and been under authority even more. One aspect significant to my temperament is the ways I know how to precisely avoid control. If you control someone's response to you, it is completely meaningless.

    The only environments in which I can remotely feel at home or understood are the most multi-cultural ones I have encountered. I appreciate the kind of stasis that results from multiple perspectives. Interestingly enough as I have started studying counseling (of which the INFJ temperament is considered the Counselor), the single most important quality is the ability to see through the other person's eyes without the desire to judge or control. The reason there are so few effective counselors is because there are so few people willing to let go of personal judgment and simply show concern and respect for other's ability to master their own lives.

    I have read and been told numerous times that Ni is about seeing things from multiple perspectives and reconciling paradox. Wanting unanimity and controlled responses from others is simply not an example of this from what i understand. That it is its distilled opposite is intriguing, however.

    edit: what you describe there is a world in which empathy is irrelevant. It strikes a disturbing nerve in me that makes me somewhat queasy. It's like contemplating losing one of your senses or mobility. That descriptions of a world with androids makes me feel the same way as contemplating becoming completely paralyzed. It sends a chill of panicked entrapment. If that is in fact Ni, then i want the hell out.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  10. #10
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    That is my deepest possible nightmare. Being on either end of control makes me want to grasp my head, shut my eyes, and run as fast as I can not caring where that leads me. I have been in authority positions many times and been under authority even more. One aspect significant to my temperament is the ways I know how to precisely avoid control. If you control someone's response to you, it is completely meaningless.
    That's the paradox that makes it so confusing. On one hand, I want them to care about my dreams, on the other, if they aren't doing it of their own volition, it doesn't mean anything. I try to compromise. But I guess on some level, I'm nice and sympathetic to people to control how they perceive me to some degree, although ultimately I'm glad that they have free will, because it feels like, in that case, that it must be real compassion. It's like I want to control their responses enough that they don't make me feel threatened, yet I want it to be their choice to do the things I want. If I were pressured and mistreated the way this character was, though, I can imagine becoming like that.

    I have read and been told numerous times that Ni is about seeing things from multiple perspectives and reconciling paradox. Wanting unanimity and controlled responses from others is simply not an example of this from what i understand. That it is its distilled opposite is intriguing, however.
    Ironically, he can see multiple perspectives. The problem is, he manages to set things up in his mind so that his solution is the only way to reconcile the paradox. No matter how you try to persuade him, he can explain to you how he is justified.

    Note that I don't actually want a world of androids or anything, I'm just saying that I've been so frustrated by people's tendency to just discard my views and cling to annoying ones that I don't like and feel oppressed by sometimes makes me wish for such a world for a moment, although I don't think I would be happy for long if it actually happened.

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