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  1. #11
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    That's the paradox that makes it so confusing. On one hand, I want them to care about my dreams, on the other, if they aren't doing it of their own volition, it doesn't mean anything. I try to compromise. But I guess on some level, I'm nice and sympathetic to people to control how they perceive me to some degree, although ultimately I'm glad that they have free will, because it feels like, in that case, that it must be real compassion. It's like I want to control their responses enough that they don't make me feel threatened, yet I want it to be their choice to do the things I want. If I were pressured and mistreated the way this character was, though, I can imagine becoming like that.



    Ironically, he can see multiple perspectives. The problem is, he manages to set things up in his mind so that his solution is the only way to reconcile the paradox. No matter how you try to persuade him, he can explain to you how he is justified.
    Perhaps it is because you are convinced of the correctness of your view and the reasons you want others to also agree with you is because you feel if they did they would be doing things in the correct manner and thus preventing some pain for themselves or for you and yours? I mean this is how I see this issue. That it is not so much the idea of control for sheer power's own sake but for lifting people out of misery?

  2. #12
    Wait, what? Varelse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Perhaps it is because you are convinced of the correctness of your view and the reasons you want others to also agree with you is because you feel if they did they would be doing things in the correct manner and thus preventing some pain for themselves or for you and yours? I mean this is how I see this issue. That it is not so much the idea of control for sheer power's own sake but for lifting people out of misery?
    That's the impression I've gotten. That I should obey in such matters because of expertise on Elwin's part, and that if I do so, I'll be happier because he knows what will make me happy.

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  3. #13
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    That's the paradox that makes it so confusing. On one hand, I want them to care about my dreams, on the other, if they aren't doing it of their own volition, it doesn't mean anything. I try to compromise. But I guess on some level, I'm nice and sympathetic to people to control how they perceive me to some degree, although ultimately I'm glad that they have free will, because it feels like, in that case, that it must be real compassion. It's like I want to control their responses enough that they don't make me feel threatened, yet I want it to be their choice to do the things I want. If I were pressured and mistreated the way this character was, though, I can imagine becoming like that.
    By offering people very little information, just mildly pleasant and distant, the INFJ can offer others a blank slate on which to paint their ideas. Since I don't know you and have never seen you interact, I'm really not sure what degree you are controlling and so forth. Behaving pleasantly to fulfill expectations and/or avoid conflict is not the same thing as controlling. I would venture to say that the majority of social communication is for the purpose of influencing others.


    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Note that I don't actually want a world of androids or anything, I'm just saying that I've been so frustrated by people's tendency to just discard my views and cling to annoying ones that I don't like and feel oppressed by sometimes makes me wish for such a world for a moment, although I don't think I would be happy for long if it actually happened.


    I don't know your environment, but do know it can make quite a difference. Your statement here sounds like you specifically feel a lack of control? Your analogy of the androids almost implies that your desire for more control is not reasonable, which it probably is. Simply put, you have every right to be heard, and it shouldn't require a world of robots to make that happen. Although people can be willfully deaf and that is unfortunate for them. I have lived places in which i almost lost myself because everyone around me insisted on seeing me in a false light. That too can be a nightmare, but i never had the ability or energy to try to alter their view. Sometimes I withhold information to allow others to form the picture they intend to form, without my interruption. If they insist on a false picture, if they have a need for me to be 'something' in relation to them, i allow it, but leave if it is false. I have learned that people will see whatever they want and need to. It's not worth fighting to change it. Perhaps for those on the fence, but the ones deeply ingrained in their false picture should be left to their assumptions. I actually have a few people online who have hardened pictures of me that are false, but you know what? They 'need' me to be those false things either to keep their world view intact, to resolve some type of personal experience issue, or just in order to feel superior. I can observe and guess, but will never know. It can really hurt to be misread, but it's worth getting accustomed to it. The best part is that you can learn a tremendous amount about people based on their false pictures of you. It is often the shortest path to viewing their deepest part. I believe the term is, projection.
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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varelse View Post
    That's the impression I've gotten. That I should obey in such matters because of expertise on Elwin's part, and that if I do so, I'll be happier because he knows what will make me happy.
    Yes, that's my husband. Always looking for a new system to save others pain, especially me and being hurt if that system is not something I am interested in. Now don't get me wrong, I think he is brillant and mostly always on the money with his insights and ideas BUT I am just too random a person to be able to use much of his *systems* for getting things done.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    It can really hurt to be misread, but it's worth getting accustomed to it. The best part is that you can learn a tremendous amount about people based on their false pictures of you. It is often the shortest path to viewing their deepest part. I believe the term is, projection.

    I am misread all the time and so is my husband. I agree with what you say here about it showing more about the person doing the misreading, it is a view into them.

  6. #16
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    I would venture to say that the majority of social communication is for the purpose of influencing others.
    Well, yes. That's what I mean. I meant that by behaving pleasantly, I am using social rules to cause people to perceive me in a positive way. That is a certain type of control, it just isn't viewed that way, especially if I give them some of what they want in terms of compliance with their wishes, hoping it will make them more sympathetic to my views in turn. I'm sure that many people do this.

    If they insist on a false picture, if they have a need for me to be 'something' in relation to them, i allow it, but leave if it is false. I have learned that people will see whatever they want and need to. It's not worth fighting to change it. Perhaps for those on the fence, but the ones deeply ingrained in their false picture should be left to their assumptions. I actually have a few people online who have hardened pictures of me that are false, but you know what? They 'need' me to be those false things either to keep their world view intact, to resolve some type of personal experience issue, or just in order to feel superior. I can observe and guess, but will never know. It can really hurt to be misread, but it's worth getting accustomed to it.
    I can tolerate certain false pictures, but there are certain ways of being perceived that are just unbearable to me, and I would hate someone for perceiving me in that particular way. Not many people openly insist on seeing me in those ways, but there are some I can't handle. If they admit to seeing me that way, then it makes me hate them.

    Also, there are certain views I disagree with, that seem blunted, shortsighted, ignorant, and/or overly tolerant of something I can't stand. I'm nice to such people to prevent them from getting angry with me, but inwardly I hate their guts.

    As far as projection goes, I don't mind trying to see something from another person's perspective, because then I can help them, and they might be willing to try and see things from my perspective as well. Also, looking at things from multiple perspectives helps me understand what's true about all perspectives, what the limitations and rules of the mind are.

  7. #17
    Senior Member wedekit's Avatar
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    Yeah, Tales of Symphonia made me stop in my tracks because Mithos was very understandable to me. He was like a Christ Figure for the ToS world. With a twist of course.
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  8. #18
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    I remember him saying it. I would say that I try to find an ideal, and find fulfillment in other's accepting my ideals. In a sense, I want to control other people's feelings and perception of me. The most vivid imagining I've ever had about this I've ever had was one where I swept away the entire world with a wave of my hand, and created a new one filled with androids who would feel whatever I wanted them to, and who all accepted my ideals. Basically, I want to control people's emotions. I'm not satisfied with obedience or objective goals. I want to control their hearts, I want to make them care about my ideals as much as I do. That is how I feel. I would never try to do something like that in real life because of how difficult it would be, and how much I would be disliked, but I can't honestly say that I wouldn't do something like that if I had the ability. But then, have you ever heard the saying, "Absolute power corrupts absolutely?" Basically, my desire not to be disliked prevents me from trying too hard to force my ideals on people, but I do hold ideals. However, if I became neurotic somehow, there are several ways that it could be reconciled.
    I want people to get along... but I don't think I want to control other people's emotions. There's an ideal in my mind, but that ideal is freedom. Freedom for people to just BE. I dislike seeing people be pushed to conform to some preconceived standards. What makes one set of standards better than another? People ought to be allowed to discover such for themselves. So, it appears on the surface that I abhor control... emotional or otherwise.

    Yet if you truly think about it, in order for people to be free to live the way they wanted to, there has to be control. A madman wishes to inflict pain on others to reach a high... or a less extreme case, a person needing structure provided by traditional values to feel secure... wishing for a completely ordered world where everybody does things in the exact same way. Satisfying such will be to interfere with other people's freedom. Therefore true freedom is impossible for society.

    Even my wish for harmonious freedom, is in a sense a wish to control other people's freedom. To have a judgment is to wish for control? In making a judgment, any judgment... is to say one thing/way is more preferable than another. Does that not translate to a wish to change things to reflect your judgment? Wanting to change things in a specific direction is a wish for control. It'll be a stronger urge for Js compared to Ps... however I think everybody in some ways want control.

    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    The only environments in which I can remotely feel at home or understood are the most multi-cultural ones I have encountered. I appreciate the kind of stasis that results from multiple perspectives. Interestingly enough as I have started studying counseling (of which the INFJ temperament is considered the Counselor), the single most important quality is the ability to see through the other person's eyes without the desire to judge or control. The reason there are so few effective counselors is because there are so few people willing to let go of personal judgment and simply show concern and respect for other's ability to master their own lives.

    I have read and been told numerous times that Ni is about seeing things from multiple perspectives and reconciling paradox. Wanting unanimity and controlled responses from others is simply not an example of this from what i understand. That it is its distilled opposite is intriguing, however.
    I agree with what Toonia said... in some ways Ni is an "unworldly" function. It wants to be in a world that couldn't ever exists... All Fe can do is struggle to make the real world a little bit closer to that dream.

    Counselling... what you said reminded me a lot of Rodger's client centered therapy...

    Unanimity is the exact opposite to individual diversity. Hmmm a thought crossed my mind. I often swing violently between two extreme judgments before settling down to something more reasonable. Is that a natural part of Ni? To see/visualize extremes in order to recognize the limits within a particular perspective. Then move perpendicular from the two (for the lack of better words) in order to break through the paradox. So to dwell in either extreme would be like an INFJ that is unable to cope? To move past that point?

  9. #19
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    That is my deepest possible nightmare. Being on either end of control makes me want to grasp my head, shut my eyes, and run as fast as I can not caring where that leads me. I have been in authority positions many times and been under authority even more. One aspect significant to my temperament is the ways I know how to precisely avoid control. If you control someone's response to you, it is completely meaningless.

    The only environments in which I can remotely feel at home or understood are the most multi-cultural ones I have encountered. I appreciate the kind of stasis that results from multiple perspectives. Interestingly enough as I have started studying counseling (of which the INFJ temperament is considered the Counselor), the single most important quality is the ability to see through the other person's eyes without the desire to judge or control. The reason there are so few effective counselors is because there are so few people willing to let go of personal judgment and simply show concern and respect for other's ability to master their own lives.

    I have read and been told numerous times that Ni is about seeing things from multiple perspectives and reconciling paradox. Wanting unanimity and controlled responses from others is simply not an example of this from what i understand. That it is its distilled opposite is intriguing, however.

    edit: what you describe there is a world in which empathy is irrelevant. It strikes a disturbing nerve in me that makes me somewhat queasy. It's like contemplating losing one of your senses or mobility. That descriptions of a world with androids makes me feel the same way as contemplating becoming completely paralyzed. It sends a chill of panicked entrapment. If that is in fact Ni, then i want the hell out.
    I do have similar feelings about this. I am a little...at a loss in terms of the OP, but I think I'm probably mis-reading or misunderstanding it.

    Since Ni is my primary function, it's apparently what I'm doing most of the time when I'm in my head, just thinking and pondering things. I'm not even sure how I would describe it, as I'm not one to try to break down and analyze how I think; it just comes naturally and it's just what I do...I have no idea what it IS that I do though!! :-)

    But I can relate to the multiple perspectives thing, and often when I'm thinking about things it's like I'm interweaving all kinds of things at the same time, and it's not uncommon for it to take...days or weeks or months for me to actually 'figure out' what it is I'm pondering. The length of time depends on the topic. For example it might be days when I'm processing a conversation or previous interaction with someone; or months if I'm pondering what my 'next step' will be in my life, or years if I'm pondering something huge like religion or psychology and sociology or world dynamics. Hmm.

    But I guess I've never felt any conscious urge to control people or rule over anyone - I just don't want to control people. The idea just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It's quite possible I'm 'controlling' people in unconscious ways that I'm unaware of, but I reckon this would be the case with everyone - that each of us 'controls' one another in our own unique way, with unique motives. But if it's unconscious, would it then be outside of the realm of control? Because I think of 'control' as a conscious action. Unconscious stuff would just be.....any number of personality things. I don't know what I'm trying to say.

    I do feel strongly about some of my beliefs, and there are things that I value **SO*** incredibly much that it *PAINS* me that others reject or could care less about what I value most, and yes, it can be hard for me not to just hate those who treat what I value with contempt. It can nauseate me and make me so angry. And yes, I don't want to have anything to do with anyone who violates and completely disregards what I most treasure. Do I wish others would value what I value? Well, certainly. But I would imagine most people out there, regardless of personality type, really want others to understand them, appreciate and accept them, and value what they value. I think that's just being human. We all want to be loved and accepted, and that goes into our very core and WHO we are - what we value, as well as our thoughts and character that make each of us unique.

    Quote Originally Posted by nightning
    I often swing violently between two extreme judgments before settling down to something more reasonable. Is that a natural part of Ni? To see/visualize extremes in order to recognize the limits within a particular perspective. Then move perpendicular from the two (for the lack of better words) in order to break through the paradox. So to dwell in either extreme would be like an INFJ that is unable to cope? To move past that point?
    I don't know if it's Ni or not, but I can relate. I have noticed a tendency in myself to swing from one extreme to another -- in short-term analysis, as well as longer term life perspectives. But I feel the healthiest and most at peace when I take a balanced approach to life..and to everything, really. Just centering myself in all areas of my life - I don't really like the concept of extremes, and for my emotional health extremes are usually a sign of my being what I consider unhealthy.

    For example, several years ago I was rather disillusioned with my life and with the American culture. I think I sat in an Ni/Ti state, turning off most of my Fe, for a little while. I was just rather..bitter..with 'the masses'. This was also the time I was reading Ayn Rand and so books like 'Atlas Shrugged' kinda fed into my loathing of humanity as a whole. But I also despised this perspective that I found myself in, and I didn't like that I was in it. Although I was very judging at that time and actually hated that I was that way, I suppose one could argue I 'needed' to go through all of those thoughts, because I think really I was just exploring all of the negative things I was perceiving about people and institutions and the world at large, and I hated that I was powerless to do anything about everything that I despised. I was also unhappy with the fact that I WAS 'stuck' and didn't know how to tie together all of the paradoxes I saw around me. I was unable to 'cope', like nightning said, but I also felt that deep within I'd eventually figure it out and I had confidence that although it sucked in the moment and I didn't know the path to take, I'd find it. I eventually Ni'ed my way out of it and feel much healthier *and happier* and at peace emotionally and in how I perceive and interact with others. I really can't say what exactly it was that I 'tied off' and how I made sense of all of it, but I think a lot of it was just accepting it? I feel like there's a lot more, but I really can't write about 2 or 3 yrs worth of Ni'ing. :-)

    I guess this is my very long way of saying that my own happiness and state of mind has a large bearing on my perception of others and the world. Sounds quite obvious, yes, but it was helpful for me to learn this about myself.

    Oy, I'm going into ultra-babble stage now. :-) I have no idea what my point is by this point!

    Ah, in closing: to echo what others have said, I want REAL responses and authenticity and others being genuine, so I have no desire to control others. I want others to be themselves, because they have just as much desire to feel safe and accepted for who they are as I do. If I tried to control others I would feel like I had no right to expect others to accept me for me...because clearly I'm not accepting them for them!! :-) (well, such is the logic of me ) Doesn't mean my values aren't still important and I won't walk away from people who cross them or who I can't respect...I still have control of who I ultimately want in my life.

    Another thing I've noticed about myself: I'm usually only judgemental of others when I'm just observing them or watching them from afar, and I'm definitely judgemental when it comes to some group behavior. But ultimately when I start talking one on one with someone, my judgements start melting away and it's rather refreshing and healing to hear others' perspectives...just a reminder that it doesn't do me a whole lot of good in the long term to get too set in my own little world. And seriously....I also think it's kinda ludicrous for me to think that there's only one way of living out your life and interacting with people and the world (and from my observations, this clearly isn't the case!! This is often why I think I have so much trouble picking out my 'life path' as I call it...because I can see so many possibilities)...so it actually kinda makes me happy these days to talk to people who are rather different from myself.
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  10. #20
    Senior Member marm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    I agree with what Toonia said... in some ways Ni is an "unworldly" function. It wants to be in a world that couldn't ever exists... All Fe can do is struggle to make the real world a little bit closer to that dream.
    Ni feels "unworldly" to me, but its one of my shadow functions. I've heard various INFPs say that Ni seems this way, but I've never heard an INFJ say this. I'm thinking you mean something different than an INFP's sense of Ni as mystical/visionary.

    By "unworldly", do you simply mean without external context?

    Counselling... what you said reminded me a lot of Rodger's client centered therapy...

    Unanimity is the exact opposite to individual diversity. Hmmm a thought crossed my mind. I often swing violently between two extreme judgments before settling down to something more reasonable. Is that a natural part of Ni? To see/visualize extremes in order to recognize the limits within a particular perspective. Then move perpendicular from the two (for the lack of better words) in order to break through the paradox. So to dwell in either extreme would be like an INFJ that is unable to cope? To move past that point?
    I like that description of INFJ. INFP is opposite of that. I often start with a strong sense of Fi certainty... extreme judgment if you will. And then I work out from there into the many Ne possibilities. If I'm feeling open, then I might manage to incorporate the opposite of my original extreme judgment.

    Do you think that an INFJ who gets stuck in either extreme is using their shadow Fi?

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