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  1. #71
    Senior Member lulabelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    i'd revise both of those.

    bob dylan isfp 4w3 sx/sp
    leonard cohen enfj 3w4 so/sx

    3s know how to create an impression. even if the mechanisms/resources are different for Fi and Fe.

    i also think much of the function of F (and something in all people) drives us to care what others think about us. i think the unfocused so instinct has more to do with appearing to not care about what others think than Fi vs Fe does. i think Fe is more concerned with craving an articulation of agreement or consensus, whereas Fi is more focused on ensuring acceptable experience.
    i could see bob dylan as an ISFP but leonard cohen an ENFJ??? it's crazy to me that anyone would even think of him as an extrovert. he's the quintessential INFP poet. have you read Beautiful Losers? it's kind of like an INFP antihero journey masterwork. a journey of the Fi + Ne soul, if you will. it's very abstract and strange and ethereal. have you watched an interview with him? he is VERY quiet, low energy, very introspective and sensitive. i can't imagine a more INFP 4w5, possibly 4w3 kinda person. he's a version of every sensitive INFP artist i've ever known. i think you're reading into isolated details or effects of his work too much; he behaves and writes very much like an INFP. i have to say, while INFJs can be great at reading people, i think Ni can sometimes latch onto details that don't have too much to do with the deeper, more fundamental aspects of a person. i don't intend any offense with this, i just remember your comments on Joanna Newsom as well and feeling like you were kind of missing the bigger picture/core of the person you were typing. it's like, you were spinning a cool web of ideas about her but i could have seen you expressing the same things about me, and examining my work from different, interesting angles i had never considered, but ultimately missing the mark in terms of where the music came from inside of me, and what my intentions/focuses were.

  2. #72
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lulabelle View Post
    i could see bob dylan as an ISFP but leonard cohen an ENFJ??? it's crazy to me that anyone would even think of him as an extrovert. he's the quintessential INFP poet. have you read Beautiful Losers? it's kind of like an INFP antihero journey masterwork. a journey of the Fi + Ne soul, if you will. it's very abstract and strange and ethereal. have you watched an interview with him? he is VERY quiet, low energy, very introspective and sensitive. i can't imagine a more INFP 4w5, possibly 4w3 kinda person. he's a version of every sensitive INFP artist i've ever known. i think you're reading into isolated details or effects of his work too much; he behaves and writes very much like an INFP. i have to say, while INFJs can be great at reading people, i think Ni can sometimes latch onto details that don't have too much to do with the deeper, more fundamental aspects of a person. i don't intend any offense with this, i just remember your comments on Joanna Newsom as well and feeling like you were kind of missing the bigger picture/core of the person you were typing. it's like, you were spinning a cool web of ideas about her but i could have seen you expressing the same things about me, and examining my work from different, interesting angles i had never considered, but ultimately missing the mark in terms of where the music came from inside of me, and what my intentions/focuses were.
    with low certainty, i would type you as an isfp rather than an enfj. i also have leonard cohen as a 3w4 so/sx. he's all about rapport and connection. so graceful, smooth, etc. i mean, look at his later career. he's done a great job of cultivating an image of himself as the penultimate poet lover. trust me, me breaking up with you will be the most beautiful thing that's ever happened to you. it's funny. he has a pretty decent sense of humor (like most so/sx) as well.

    as much as he has done the whole buddhism retreat thing, he also seems like a restlesss, hypomanic so/sx to me as much as it gets. no sp. no grounding. no letting go of your idea of yourself and truly emptying until you can start over again from nothing. even if he does have the 4 who the fuck am i quality plaguing him and wanting to get away from the horror of being with others when being in such a raw, self-shaming, no boundaries and total disconnection with self state. he's still living to convince you of who he is, because he sure as shit doesn't seem to know or trust it.

    i also think intentions/focuses probably aren't directly scoped into cognition. i think the enneagram has a lot more to say about that. and i see joanna newsom as a 9, as i said before. sadie, baby birch, those seem like more 9 than 4 to me. 4 is more smoke and mirrors. like nirvana. sebadoh. win butler. the pleasure of getting to know who i am isn't necessarily one you deserve, and i will keep you guessing. i mean, joanna newsom vs my body is a cage. it doesn't really make sense. she's so embodied, even if she also has an ethereal, dreamy N quality.

  3. #73
    Senior Member lulabelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    with low certainty, i would type you as an isfp rather than an enfj. i also have leonard cohen as a 3w4 so/sx. he's all about rapport and connection. so graceful, smooth, etc. i mean, look at his later career. he's done a great job of cultivating an image of himself as the penultimate poet lover. trust me, me breaking up with you will be the most beautiful thing that's ever happened to you. it's funny. he has a pretty decent sense of humor (like most so/sx) as well.

    as much as he has done the whole buddhism retreat thing, he also seems like a restlesss, hypomanic so/sx to me as much as it gets. no sp. no grounding. no letting go of your idea of yourself and truly emptying until you can start over again from nothing. even if he does have the 4 who the fuck am i quality plaguing him and wanting to get away from the horror of being with others when being in such a raw, self-shaming, no boundaries and total disconnection with self state. he's still living to convince you of who he is, because he sure as shit doesn't seem to know or trust it.

    i also think intentions/focuses probably aren't directly scoped into cognition. i think the enneagram has a lot more to say about that. and i see joanna newsom as a 9, as i said before. sadie, baby birch, those seem like more 9 than 4 to me. 4 is more smoke and mirrors. like nirvana. sebadoh. win butler. the pleasure of getting to know who i am isn't necessarily one you deserve, and i will keep you guessing. i mean, joanna newsom vs my body is a cage. it doesn't really make sense. she's so embodied, even if she also has an ethereal, dreamy N quality.
    :/.
    i hope the certainty you have about my type is indeed very very low because i have virtually no se; i have never even considered being an isfp. i have an isfp friend and we have all the differences that one would expect between an infp and an isfp. she definitely wishes i were more in the moment---i think her hope is that one day i will stop spending all my time ruminating and walking into walls (literal and)!
    it's funny---she initially pegged me as a thinker, i guesss because of the stark intuitive/sensor divide between us. i remember having conversations with her when we were younger and getting so frustrated when she would stop my emotional ramblings/over-analyses to point out the color of the lampshade next to her or this kind of oddly colored bird outside. discovering mbti has actually really helped me accept these aspects of her that were super foreign; why the fuck are you so concerned with these bright colors to the extent that you, a sensitive person, don't want to ~emotionally connect with me right now? i never really notice the details of my environment unless there it resonates emotionally in some way-generally it reminds me of a feeling i used to have or part of a feeling i used to have + imagine i will feel again.
    she's much better at keepin goin and creating these opportunities for herself and focusing on one thing and then the next. we do have the unspoken fi bond but i don't think she'll ever really understand my propensity for self-sabotage and insane emotional whirlpools

    all of dat unless you were being Cheeky, in which case i'll chalk it up to my isfp-ness

    i will concede joanna is very possbibly an enneagram 9 INFP. she is so stubborn and unrelenting in her vision that I supposed I recognized a bit of that in me and projected some 4w5 onto her. I can be dreamy and sweet just as often as I'm moody and inscrutable
    definitely definitely not an INFJ, however, as you previously claimed her to be. i can discern between INFPs and INFJs much more easily and readily than their enneagrams; INFP 9s and INFJ 9s have very different presences.
    all intuitives are less in the moment than sensing types, but i definitely wouldn't call most of them ethereal; infps are really the most outwardly dreamy. that combination of fi + ne creates this kind of otherworldly, soft, expansive presence that i've never experienced in any other type. INFJs are definitely otherwordly, but all of the ones i've met/watched videos of have this focused, kind of discordant emotional presence + aren't really content to just let things float up past the sky. as i said in my other post, they are more ninja-like than airy fairy dreamy. they need answers and resolution more than us INFPs.

    leonard cohen can come across as pretentious but i don't think his intention is to cultivate an image first and foremost. i think he feels, puts things out there and public perception and ego can get mixed in as well. i think most of the 'best lover evar' mystique surrounding him was mostly made by other people. 4w5s can definitely get tripped up by ego. i can't say i'm entirely certain as to his enneagram (i'll have to watch more videos) but i am pretty confident he's an INFP. still wondering how you can peg such a quiet, introspective. languid man as an ENFJ. have you met one? they have a very very different energy to them. they are charged with that extrovert energy even in their quieter moments.

    why do you believe intention doesn't play into MBTI type? an INFJ 4w5 and INFP 4w5 are still very different in terms of intentions; the INFJ will desire for a greater group togetherness even as they greatly value self-expression and the INFP will give much less of a fuck about group dynamics.
    Last edited by lulabelle; 10-17-2014 at 01:58 PM.

  4. #74
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lulabelle View Post
    i will concede joanna is very possbibly an enneagram 9 INFP. she is so stubborn and unrelenting in her vision that I supposed I recognized a bit of that in me and projected some 4w5 onto her. I can be dreamy and sweet just as often as I'm moody and inscrutable
    i'm not sure what you're trying to say here. she is stubborn and unrelenting? are these more relevant or less relevant for certain types? i would think type would explain the ways in which stubborness, for instance, is differentiated and requires more uphill climb to be able to let go of. but that would be the limit of what i feel i could reasonably claim.

    definitely definitely not an INFJ, however, as you previously claimed her to be. i can discern between INFPs and INFJs much more easily and readily than their enneagrams; INFP 9s and INFJ 9s have very different presences.
    i don't disagree with the latter comment. but i also can't really take much away from this.

    all intuitives are less in the moment than sensing types, but i definitely wouldn't call most of them ethereal; infps are really the most outwardly dreamy. that combination of fi + ne creates this kind of otherworldly, soft, expansive presence that i've never experienced in any other type. INFJs are definitely otherwordly, but all of the ones i've met/watched videos of have this focused, kind of discordant emotional presence + aren't really content to just let things float up past the sky. as i said in my other post, they are more ninja-like than airy fairy dreamy. they need answers and resolution more than us INFPs.
    do you think this first statement is true? i think being in the moment happens when people don't lose their connection with their primary instrument of direct experience, which begins with their bodies and can get disrupted when they get totally stuck in their heads. and N has no claim to have an exclusive hold on head type energies, so some Se types can lose get out of the moment as well. esps are most often 7s! istps are 5s! i also think it can be a tendency of introverts especially to be more easily caught in the tangles of the past, because that's kind of the orientation, which predisposes to rumination (as does emotional conflicts that we don't figure out how to directly face at an emotional level). meanwhile, Ne can be in the moment just as Se, even if the flow of energies constituting the moment has a different kind of focus and is constructed in different ways. extroverted perception is extroverted perception. Se may be more proprioceptively grounded, but that does not mean that Ne does not also have a rich type of presence that is just a bit less rooted in body clock but is still feeling the forward march of time just the same (because the process of having direct experience it itself rooted in the action of scanning, which is a time creating linear forward movement of calculating how change has just been happening).

    leonard cohen can come across as pretentious but i don't think his intention is to cultivate an image first and foremost. i think he feels, puts things out there and public perception and ego can get mixed in as well. i think most of the 'best lover evar' mystique surrounding him was mostly made by other people. 4w5s can definitely get tripped up by ego. i can't say i'm entirely certain as to his enneagram (i'll have to watch more videos) but i am pretty confident he's an INFP. still wondering how you can peg such a quiet, introspective. languid man as an ENFJ. have you met one? they have a very very different energy to them. they are charged with that extrovert energy even in their quieter moments.
    i'm not saying it's not cheeky, but field commander cohen is the one who chooses to title records "death of a ladies man." he definitely builds a nice little mythology for himself that to me seems to see himself through the eyes of others more than his own. unless it's who he wants to be and not as much what he actually is, which he is certainly focusing on in pretty much everything he does. i don't ever get the feeling his art comes before the way it affects his idea of himself. and as what i see a fellow 4 wing, i get that. but he's not a 4w5. he's getting on the main stage. he's gonna win EVERYBODY over. that's just my vibe. more desire to excel, less desire to find and follow truth. i mean, when are the personally vulnerable songs coming? i just don't get the emotional center of gravity i get from the infp 4w5s i know. i get bombast, affectation, voicing, insight, beautification, etc.

    i love his songs, but i love them the way i love my own adolescent journals. they're precocious as shit, but they're also full of shit too. i'm pretty sure he knows that, which is part of where the game and the fun come in. because why not. granted, i couldn't do much after (chronologically speaking) death of a ladies man, which i still think is a kind of an enjoyable record.

    why do you believe intention doesn't play into MBTI type? an INFJ 4w5 and INFP 4w5 are still very different in terms of intentions; the INFJ will desire for a greater group togetherness even as they greatly value self-expression and the INFP will give much less of a fuck about group dynamics.
    because it's a way of processing information. it's a quality of ordering. to skip to embodiment without seeing it clearly doesn't really yield effective categorization. and to assign categorical intentions without that clear seeing doesn't make sense to me. they'd have to be so vague they wouldn't hold up.

    building on that, i also don't really accept many of your claims. Fe doesn't mean you just care about group togetherness. it means you are focusing on how the conditions of communication effect the unity qualitatively, in an embodied way, of whatever emerging level of organization you are trying to impact. i'm an sx/sp. i'm not group oriented. what you say just doesn't apply. i'm also definitely not Fi first. the logic of the scheme just breaks down. Fi types are better at focusing evaluation on the implications of direct qualitative experience. Fe types are better at focusing evaluation on the qualitative meaning of cascading messages as they are bound together by a system or grammar of organized interaction principles. meanwhile, social instinct infps often do a shit ton of work checking in with everyone and building effective group interaction. i've seen it too many times. they're often really good at demographics because they clearly see how factors of place and path lead to different general stories of experience that bind together commonality at an experiential level. they get what people go through. sp/sx aren't really like that. their field of focus in social interactions is generally different and doesn't really yield itself to naturally, from the beginning, just innately having a desire to if not take responsibility for the whole of the group, do at least one's part in maintaining that and constantly checking in with that to make sure they aren't letting down the group. sp would be more avoidant of being out of control, wasteful, ineffective, unrealistic, etc, so they'd try to focus on whatever was the foundation first (and privileging sx over so would influence that order of checking in and where the energy of the action would come from).

  5. #75
    Senior Member lulabelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    i'm not sure what you're trying to say here. she is stubborn and unrelenting? are these more relevant or less relevant for certain types? i would think type would explain the ways in which stubborness, for instance, is differentiated and requires more uphill climb to be able to let go of. but that would be the limit of what i feel i could reasonably claim.



    i don't disagree with the latter comment. but i also can't really take much away from this.



    do you think this first statement is true? i think being in the moment happens when people don't lose their connection with their primary instrument of direct experience, which begins with their bodies and can get disrupted when they get totally stuck in their heads. and N has no claim to have an exclusive hold on head type energies, so some Se types can lose get out of the moment as well. esps are most often 7s! istps are 5s! i also think it can be a tendency of introverts especially to be more easily caught in the tangles of the past, because that's kind of the orientation, which predisposes to rumination (as does emotional conflicts that we don't figure out how to directly face at an emotional level). meanwhile, Ne can be in the moment just as Se, even if the flow of energies constituting the moment has a different kind of focus and is constructed in different ways. extroverted perception is extroverted perception. Se may be more proprioceptively grounded, but that does not mean that Ne does not also have a rich type of presence that is just a bit less rooted in body clock but is still feeling the forward march of time just the same (because the process of having direct experience it itself rooted in the action of scanning, which is a time creating linear forward movement of calculating how change has just been happening).



    i'm not saying it's not cheeky, but field commander cohen is the one who chooses to title records "death of a ladies man." he definitely builds a nice little mythology for himself that to me seems to see himself through the eyes of others more than his own. unless it's who he wants to be and not as much what he actually is, which he is certainly focusing on in pretty much everything he does. i don't ever get the feeling his art comes before the way it affects his idea of himself. and as what i see a fellow 4 wing, i get that. but he's not a 4w5. he's getting on the main stage. he's gonna win EVERYBODY over. that's just my vibe. more desire to excel, less desire to find and follow truth. i mean, when are the personally vulnerable songs coming? i just don't get the emotional center of gravity i get from the infp 4w5s i know. i get bombast, affectation, voicing, insight, beautification, etc.

    i love his songs, but i love them the way i love my own adolescent journals. they're precocious as shit, but they're also full of shit too. i'm pretty sure he knows that, which is part of where the game and the fun come in. because why not. granted, i couldn't do much after (chronologically speaking) death of a ladies man, which i still think is a kind of an enjoyable record.



    because it's a way of processing information. it's a quality of ordering. to skip to embodiment without seeing it clearly doesn't really yield effective categorization. and to assign categorical intentions without that clear seeing doesn't make sense to me. they'd have to be so vague they wouldn't hold up.

    building on that, i also don't really accept many of your claims. Fe doesn't mean you just care about group togetherness. it means you are focusing on how the conditions of communication effect the unity qualitatively, in an embodied way, of whatever emerging level of organization you are trying to impact. i'm an sx/sp. i'm not group oriented. what you say just doesn't apply. i'm also definitely not Fi first. the logic of the scheme just breaks down. Fi types are better at focusing evaluation on the implications of direct qualitative experience. Fe types are better at focusing evaluation on the qualitative meaning of cascading messages as they are bound together by a system or grammar of organized interaction principles. meanwhile, social instinct infps often do a shit ton of work checking in with everyone and building effective group interaction. i've seen it too many times. they're often really good at demographics because they clearly see how factors of place and path lead to different general stories of experience that bind together commonality at an experiential level. they get what people go through. sp/sx aren't really like that. their field of focus in social interactions is generally different and doesn't really yield itself to naturally, from the beginning, just innately having a desire to if not take responsibility for the whole of the group, do at least one's part in maintaining that and constantly checking in with that to make sure they aren't letting down the group. sp would be more avoidant of being out of control, wasteful, ineffective, unrealistic, etc, so they'd try to focus on whatever was the foundation first (and privileging sx over so would influence that order of checking in and where the energy of the action would come from).
    hmm maybe i'm being too vague but i think you're focusing on the details to such an extent that you're really confused about people's MBTI types. you miss the bigger picture. like, leonard cohen may be more conscious of his public identity than you expect of most INFPs, but he isn't an extrovert and his work isn't Fe and he demonstrates a crazy amount of Ne in his written work. he isn't an ENFJ. i know 4w5s whose art is similar to his... they're interested in creating mythology about themselves in a semi-ironic way and kinda want some public adulation. type 3 is a VERY rare one for INFPs and i imagine the person would really set off my radar as being very dissimilar to me and other 4w5s i know. fact of the matter is, leonard cohen isn't that different from them. i urge you to read his Beautiful Losers if you haven't.

    Se types certainly can lose their connection with the moment, but if they're constantly in their heads considering future plans or living in the past, they probably aren't Se types. if they think more abstractly than concretely, they probably aren't Se types.
    you seem very fired up with Ni-Ti and can see all the ways in which different types' orientations can manifest, but in doing so you really lose what the type is really about/what functions the person prefers.

    i feel like what you said about Fe is just a more complex, precise version of what i said. INFJs often concern themselves with the group dynamic to an extent that INFPs don't. they will be far more interested in how what they present might affect the group vibe, and what they determine about the group vibe will affect what they present. an INFP, even the social instinct variant you describe, considers the individual and self first as they build effective group interaction. i mean, most of us aren't friendless horrible people and recognize how there must be compromise and good interaction among people, but it's just different from the umbrella INFJ approach. the way you present things, it's like there are so many conditions to Fe and Fi, i don't know how anyone could prefer one over the other. maybe you're a very atypical INFJ because ths difference between Fe and Fi i just articulate is pretty much what i witness across the board. i see these differences without even considering enneagram or variant

    re: enneagram, i know INFJ 4w5s and INFP 4w5s and the INFJs are much more self-conscious when it comes to being ~weird and expressing their weirdness to people. one will sometimes say to me 'i wish i could be more like you and care less what people think.

    yes, i'm constantly in my head and daydreaming and thinking stupid Ne absurdities + bumping into walls and totally unaware of my physical environment but i am probably an ISFP? you just think yourself into circles where MBTI is concerned. there are some really fundamental differences in types that you refuse to recognize when typing people. people aren't ALL Ne or ALL Se, but they're called preferences for a reason

  6. #76
    Senior Member tkae.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    i realized that as an infj i will never have the IMMEDIACY and deal 100% in EMOTIONAL CURRENCY like an infp
    It's a curse as much of a blessing. Don't take that to mean I'm saying I don't enjoy it. I think it's an awesome gift to have too. But you have to remember that emotions aren't always positive, and having absolutely nothing as a buffer between the raw emotion and our core means that any type of negative feeling goes through us absolutely unchecked, like a toaster got dropped in the water with us. I will be absolutely consumed with fear or anger and can't get past it no matter what. It doesn't even have to be a real thing, it can be a perceived thing. I can think I wasn't pleasant enough with the checkout girl at the grocery store and be completely preoccupied by the guilt for hours, thinking, maybe she was having a bad day and could have used a customer who was friendly, and maybe I was that one last straw, and she made some terrible decision because I put her in a terrible place by not smiling obviously enough. And I've matured, I used to obsess over it for days instead of just hours.

    So yeah, it's great in a certain context to be have completely pure feelings that you can just wallow in, but other times it's really, really, really not wonderful at all. Being an INFJ, you get more balance. Sure, the feelings might not be as potent and immediately there, but it's not like you're all or nothing. You have stronger emotions than the average person, and it comes with the stability of being able to keep them in check when you need to and not be rendered completely non-productive.
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  7. #77
    Senior Member Yaru's Avatar
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    I am an INFP artist, my best friend is an INFJ artist. We went to the same school. Different courses.
    She is more rational than me and her art is almost the opposite of mine. She is way more schematic and polished. I'm more of a tornado of randomness. She has a better technique, but over thinks everything. I am more like ''Oh well whatever. Is my hand the brain anyway. I think I'll wait and see what she'll come up with'' and sometimes I make a mess.
    We are extremely different. But at the same time incredibly similar.
    I think we make a great team.
    Before we were friends there was a bit of envy and rivalry. Because we both had the best grades and the attention from people, and there was that kind of '' the world is too little for the two of us'' feeling.
    I wanted her practical techniques and she wanted my imagination.
    But now since we spend a lot of time together we are kind of mixing together and our art is starting to look more balanced

    Hope this helps.

    And. Almost every one could be a really good artist. It's just about finding the right learning method and inspiration that more fits your type.
    And maybe some psychological issues :P

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