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  1. #41
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    no talking in the movie theatre! i'm trying to watch the movie!
    What? I am the movie!
    "All humour has a foundation of truth."
    - Costrin

  2. #42
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    psst... He was referring to someone else.
    This guy knows what he's talking about. I wasn't talking about you. I would have said it were you if I meant you.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireyPheonix View Post
    We're pretty rare and it seems pretty hard to understand (although not on this board), and some of us have a dramatic streak. Some of us rarer types are probably going to identify much more strongly with our types, then you are with yours, simply because it is an explanation for some of our troubles out there.
    I agree with you that some take it too far....and when I posted my intial protest I was getting a bit annoyed that day, admittly because I get quite sick of being told I couldn't possibly think logically and I'm a scientist for god sake's.
    Believe it or not I actually began my life on this board as an INFP, then decided to change my type after reading enough posts by certain INF specimens on here (and because I thought it would be cool to an ESTP). People say you can’t change your type, but you can. All you do is go to edit details, delete it, and type in a new one. Presto, easy as cherry pie.

    Kidding aside, the point is that I’m no stranger to being an NF drama queen, to oversensitivity and overidentifying with emotions. There is some degree of choice involved, even though you’ll always be prone to it. You can at least try to draw the line at letting something like a post on a message board about your type ruin your day.

    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    you're being hyperbolic and dramatic. what i said was a rather meaningless generalization that should be brushed aside, bc it was a poorly conceived thought. get over it.
    You telling someone else to “get over it” is fascinating, Hoss.
    i believe that i am in hell, therefore i am there.
    –arthur rimbaud

  4. #44
    Feelin' FiNe speculative's Avatar
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    I wish I could remember where I read this, I think it was in one of the Enneagram books perhaps, or a book on writing. There was an idea about how art is simultaneously about the artist wanting to reveal themselves to the world while simultaneously hiding behind the art. (Hopefully I'll run across this again.) How would this play into the INFP vs. INFJ art issues?
    "How can I be, all I want to be,
    When all I want to do is strip away these stilled constraints
    And crush this charade, shred this sad, masquerade"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGeq5v7L3WM

  5. #45
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    INFj=
    Intentional, serious, unyielding, and unapologetic tone of work; they want you to see the Truth, and they as artists want to be taken seriously. However, I think with the INFj the work is meant to be less about THEM and more about the subject matter. They keep to the point. In their art (and IRL), they want you to see them for who they are, but it's alright if you don't because not everyone can stomach the truth. Their personal feelings come secondary to the reality in their work (Ni), but (Fe) they could still be apparent. Their work is captured life but does still speak of the INFj. The message is just more important than they are.


    INFp=
    Sporadic, saturated, colorful, and more escapist tone of work; they want you to feel their emotions with them, and they want to be understood and accepted through their work. They don't want to be obvious in their artwork/feelings; they want to be figured out and explored (and feel worthy of said exploring), much like the kind of uncharted fantasy world that they themselves often traverse alone. They want you to somehow recognize their feelings through their work (Fi). It's alright if some of reality is lost in the process because above all, it's about the emotion and their emotions being accepted, valued, and understood. Their work is more an extension of themselves.


    That's my take on it. Sorry if I'm just repeating things that have already been mentioned.
    4w3 sx/sp? INFP, INFp

  6. #46
    Cat Wench ReadingRainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    it's interesting- i just had this like sudden realization due to mbti typing that was very disillusioning. i realized that as an infj i will never have the IMMEDIACY and deal 100% in EMOTIONAL CURRENCY like an infp. my first instinct is to be paralyzingly jealous. i find that ability to be so valuable. i will never write something that affects me with the immediacy and directness and conviction of Fi.

    infj does not have the depth of internal feeling that infp has
    infj sees the connection between things, perceives the big picture with more penetrating depth, clarity, and complexity, but it does not have the inner sanctum of feeling where humans TRANSFORM life into art (emotional value, emotional currency, etc)
    infj is far more DISTANT emotionally, it PERFORMS less but attempts to reveal more in the way of insight (which i feel so unexcited about comparatively i can't even bring myself to capitalize it)

    this is why i always describe my favorite artists as “perceptive” and why i need an intellectual backbone to support the emotional currency and allow me to react with total abandon, i can't just have faith i have to have insight too, the highest insight is what gets me off strongest and most allows me to openly experience feeling with the greatest depth i am capable of. (i cannot table my insight/understanding and just openly and un-self-consciously FEEL with total FAITH and conviction, it is such an antagonistic process for me to ever let go of Ni to just FEEL)

    concluding, for me to make anything of special value, my art has to be based on INSIGHT rather than IMMEDIACY.

    i want to know if other infjs feel similarly, or if they feel more comfortable than i describe being CLOSE to the work and letting the pages breathe with the immediacy of their own personality, presence, nearness, transparency, etc. looking at the (guessed) lists of writers and musicians typings, it does not seem to go along with infj predispositions.

    My J isn't super strong and I border on a P, I'm an excellent writer.
    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    St. Stephen took rocks and St. Sebastian took arrows. You only have to take some jerks on an internet forum. Nut up.

  7. #47
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystical_Spaghetti View Post
    INFj=
    Intentional, serious, unyielding, and unapologetic tone of work; they want you to see the Truth, and they as artists want to be taken seriously. However, I think with the INFj the work is meant to be less about THEM and more about the subject matter. They keep to the point. In their art (and IRL), they want you to see them for who they are, but it's alright if you don't because not everyone can stomach the truth. Their personal feelings come secondary to the reality in their work (Ni), but (Fe) they could still be apparent. Their work is captured life but does still speak of the INFj. The message is just more important than they are.


    INFp=
    Sporadic, saturated, colorful, and more escapist tone of work; they want you to feel their emotions with them, and they want to be understood and accepted through their work. They don't want to be obvious in their artwork/feelings; they want to be figured out and explored (and feel worthy of said exploring), much like the kind of uncharted fantasy world that they themselves often traverse alone. They want you to somehow recognize their feelings through their work (Fi). It's alright if some of reality is lost in the process because above all, it's about the emotion and their emotions being accepted, valued, and understood. Their work is more an extension of themselves.
    this is pretty much my conclusion too. Fe needs to always connect to other things, while Fi is concentrated and kept (accumulates, deepens) internally. it keeps growing, but Fe just keep connecting to whatever feelings surround it. it is more in between itself and others (objects), whereas Fi is more like an "inner child." Fe needs to focus on an abstraction like Truth more than Fi bc it gets lost otherwise, without an internal compass and buzzing with whatever comes into its area.

    the sense of recognition is different bc Fi wants you to recognize it underneath the exterior shell of social acceptability, whereas Fe just wants to connect and merge with whatever it desires. there is nothing underneath to free but the intuitive imagination and the connections between everything that inspire and energize and MEAN (symbolically) so much to us. (door)ways of grasping and connecting to something larger.

  8. #48
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speculative View Post
    I wish I could remember where I read this, I think it was in one of the Enneagram books perhaps, or a book on writing. There was an idea about how art is simultaneously about the artist wanting to reveal themselves to the world while simultaneously hiding behind the art. (Hopefully I'll run across this again.) How would this play into the INFP vs. INFJ art issues?
    i feel as if infj utitlizes abstraction to articulate and uncover the connections between things. it creates meaning. it discovers symbolic means to arrange the pieces of the world into something inspiring and profoundly (broadly) human. it aims for Big Picture. it gets into things and becomes them then goes elsewhere.

    infp concentrates emotional experience so deeply and so complexly, it perceives and categorizes an incredibly dense array of hues, shades, and feeling-tones. it uses this to articulate internal feelings in a way that the rest of us can vaguely perceive and are impacted by, but can't quite say. they free us to connect with each other on a deeper emotional level thru language, music, ritual, art, etc. creating redundancy and understanding between us, our own internal states. it is so intensely personal, when it publishes its secrets it becomes true in a way that we cannot discard, and we commune in the space it opens for us.
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    it's interesting- i just had this like sudden realization due to mbti typing that was very disillusioning. i realized that as an infj i will never have the IMMEDIACY and deal 100% in EMOTIONAL CURRENCY like an infp. my first instinct is to be paralyzingly jealous. i find that ability to be so valuable. i will never write something that affects me with the immediacy and directness and conviction of Fi.

    infj does not have the depth of internal feeling that infp has
    infj sees the connection between things, perceives the big picture with more penetrating depth, clarity, and complexity, but it does not have the inner sanctum of feeling where humans TRANSFORM life into art (emotional value, emotional currency, etc)
    infj is far more DISTANT emotionally, it PERFORMS less but attempts to reveal more in the way of insight (which i feel so unexcited about comparatively i can't even bring myself to capitalize it)

    this is why i always describe my favorite artists as �perceptive� and why i need an intellectual backbone to support the emotional currency and allow me to react with total abandon, i can't just have faith i have to have insight too, the highest insight is what gets me off strongest and most allows me to openly experience feeling with the greatest depth i am capable of. (i cannot table my insight/understanding and just openly and un-self-consciously FEEL with total FAITH and conviction, it is such an antagonistic process for me to ever let go of Ni to just FEEL)

    concluding, for me to make anything of special value, my art has to be based on INSIGHT rather than IMMEDIACY.

    i want to know if other infjs feel similarly, or if they feel more comfortable than i describe being CLOSE to the work and letting the pages breathe with the immediacy of their own personality, presence, nearness, transparency, etc. looking at the (guessed) lists of writers and musicians typings, it does not seem to go along with infj predispositions.
    This is an old thread, but I felt the need to say YES, YES, I TOTALLY UNDERSTAND HOW YOU FEEL, because almost all of the responses to this thread were so disheartening and off the mark. Unfortunately, these reactions are consistent with what I have experienced many times before when I shared my subjective INFJ experiences on an MBTI forum.

    The problem is INFJs sometimes simply resent that things are the way they are, and find their feelings on the matter perfectly acceptable, and need to vent about it without being accused of needlessly whining and/or over-analyzing. After all, as dominant Ni users, we perceive truths and then react to them. Other types just don't get why we would "dwell" on something we don't like, or why we can't just shift our perspective and "look on the bright side." We can't do that because our perspective aims to be all-encompassing, multi-faceted. Our first business is to reflect reality, not to filter it.

    Another thing that drives me crazy, which also happened a lot in this thread, is that when you use MBTI to explain your processes, people say "You're letting MBTI define you too much! The problem is you're limiting yourself! Stop blaming all your problems on being an INFJ and take responsibility for yourself!" This is SO counter productive and discussion impeding, I don't even know where to begin. If you truly believe everyone has equal potential for using every function effectively without tremendous time/effort/stress, then what are you doing on an MBTI forum? Why do you even identify with a type? People are only so malleable. MBTI is meant to help you realistically assess your strengths, weaknesses, and potential for development. It can also be used to describe your experiences or express your grievances, and using it in such a way is not equivalent to putting yourself in a box.

    But you already know all this. It's the other people in this thread, and in so many others, that frustrate me. True, I can theoretically develop my Fi because the human mind is beautifully adaptable. But in order to experience the primacy of Fi that INFPs experience, I'd have to unlearn my stronger functions. Ni will always be in the lead; everything else necessarily serves the Ni vision. Lately, I too have felt intense jealousy towards INFPs, because so much of my ego has been constructed around the idea that I'm emotionally deep and complex and creative and colorful. As a child, I resembled an INFP in many ways, but over the years I have become so much more analytical and existential and unable to achieve that pureness of feeling. This is something that was so integral to me when I was young, that I can't get over the loss. It's what fills me with passion and meaning, and yet I can't take it at face value. No matter how good and right and transcendent something feels, Ni won't let me trust it 100%.

    I still resent the idea that INFPs feel more strongly or deeply than INFJs. I don't think that's the case. I think what they do have that we don't is the ability to easily trust those feelings without asking where they come from or deconstructing them and revealing them to be a mere mechanism of human existence. They have so much faith. They don't feel the need to meta-understand every little thing, the way unfettered Ni does. They don't have this relentless "big picture, universal principle" mentality getting in the way of their immediate desires and needs. They don't have to justify these feelings within an ever-changing, exhaustive framework.

    The crux of being an INFJ is that we only feel fulfilled when, like an INFP, we can commit to something that feels transcendant and meaningful; yet we have to have reasonable proof before we can commit. No matter how strongly we believe or want to believe something we can't ignore our view of reality that may or may not jive with our ideals. And we have very high ideals. It's because I feel things so deeply that I'm terrified I'm deluding myself, and they're not really as true as I feel they are. In dealing with xNFPs, I sometimes run into this impenetrable barricade that won't allow them to question a core belief. They don't even understand why someone would want to do that. For me it has nothing to do with wanting. I don't understand how you can rationally ignore something just because it makes you feel threatened. And even just saying "why would you want to doubt that" is, to my mind, admitting on some subconscious level that your beliefs are based on your wants and therefore quite possibly mere coping mechanisms. (I'm guessing this is what you actually meant when you said INFJs were better intellectually. Not that we're necessarily more intelligent, but we're more willing to go there. To be subversive in our ideology. To seriously consider any idea, no matter how torturous it is to our deeply felt ideals).

    This can be paralyzing. The immediacy of feeling, as you put it, eludes us because new insights are constantly revealing themselves and requiring us to go back and reevaluate everything and then attend to our feelings. This can be a huge block when it comes to the creative process. Not to mention inferior Se that makes it difficult to act, crippling Ni perfectionism, and the feeling of "okay, I'm deeply in tune with my feelings, but what do I do with them now? How do I translate all the nuances of these emotions into something tangible?" I wish I could create spontaneously like Fi-Ne, but that eludes me.

    And that is another misunderstanding that ran rampant throughout this thread. The envy you expressed was not only an envy of the results INFPs produce, but of their ability to experience such a sublime emotional state. No amount of pseudo-encouraging "you can create work as good as any INFP, don't limit your abilities" comments can change that. I can (and do) outperform many INFPs artistically, but I can't directly experience their creative state. It's not all about the result. It's also about the journey.

    It's not all bad though, I must add as a disclaimer. As much as I currently envy INFPs, there are perks to being an INFJ. I think it's so cool that we have the emotional resonance of NF types with a generous helping of NT analytical prowess. In my opinion, INFJs are the most thinker-like NFs. The ability to have such strong ideals and feelings while simultaneously having a drive for logical deconstruction is so rare. And it has endeared more than one NT to me, because they say I have the appealing warmth of other NFs while being willing to follow an existential discussion to any depth. To the abyss itself, if necessary.

    I could also get into the pitfalls of INFPs and the potential for Fi to be callous and self-serving under the guise of a noble cause, but given how touchy this crowd is, I'll abstain for now.
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seraphim View Post
    People are only so malleable. MBTI is meant to help you realistically assess your strengths, weaknesses, and potential for development. It can also be used to describe your experiences or express your grievances, and using it in such a way is not equivalent to putting yourself in a box.
    exactly. a person's MBTI can't be changed. the way I've come to understand typology is that MBTI, Socionics, and Temperament Theory are great for pinpointing and defining our core essence. For malleability and growth, I think the enneagram is more useful. Once someone has found their MBTI type and are 100 % certain of it, they can use that information to help in their personal growth but it can never be altered. Enneagram is a bit more nuanced in that it is less concerned with a type set in stone than it is with a transformation model.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seraphim View Post
    I think it's so cool that we have the emotional resonance of NF types with a generous helping of NT analytical prowess. In my opinion, INFJs are the most thinker-like NFs. The ability to have such strong ideals and feelings while simultaneously having a drive for logical deconstruction is so rare. And it has endeared more than one NT to me, because they say I have the appealing warmth of other NFs while being willing to follow an existential discussion to any depth. To the abyss itself, if necessary.
    Fascinating. I think this is why I've noticed so many INFJs and INTPs identifying with one another and perhaps mistyping. That tertiary Ti, although less dominant in an INFJ, is crucial to Fe. The INFJ cannot have a healthy Fe without a healthy Ti, as they essentially feed one another. Similarly, INTJs might find themselves identifying with INFPs as they mature and develop their inferior Fi in adulthood.

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