you mistake my claim for a complaint. it is not. it prevents me from spending my time saying boorish things to boorish people. furthermore, some (crazy mfs!) believe, contrary to you, that lengthy exposition in the form of logically reasoned and ever-so-tediously deduced premises, built one at a time and ticking slower than the long hand on the clock, is *pretty much* the most impotent way you could ever say anything (at least in matters we actually care about. we try to cleanse ourselves of such self-indulgence, altho we do on occassion fail...)
logical reasoning is absolutely necessary for some things, and it is totally useless in others. it's why i can find spinoza interesting (via deleuze), but would NEVER waste my time reading his embarrassing geometric proofs. i appreciate your tone, tho, it really makes up for the fact that most of your post was totally devoid of any useful insight.
ps you might want to graduate from your analytic philosophy, um, phase. claiming that logical reasoning skills are the only aspect of understanding present in the "making sense" of something shows you need to get over your logos theology/grammar police complex and get out into the world and have a look around. or at least read better philosophy books...
Fine, do not attempt to develop your logical reasoning skills. You can still be understood. You can be understood if you find people who agree with your views and have a similar way of looking at life. Keep in mind that many New Age movements and other Spiritual cults were illogical and endorsed many absurdities, yet they were also understood and appreciated by many. So, not all is lost.
you mistake my claim for a complaint. ...
What are you talking about? I regard your claim as one that states a problem. Such a problem is as follows; INFs have trouble communicating. I helped you out by pointing out the nature of the problem and offering a solution.
it is not. it prevents me from spending my time saying boorish things to boorish people. furthermore, some (crazy mfs!) believe, contrary to you, that lengthy exposition in the form of logically reasoned and ever-so-tediously deduced premises, built one at a time and ticking slower than the long hand on the clock, is *pretty much* the most impotent way you could ever say anything (at least in matters we actually care about. we try to cleanse ourselves of such self-indulgence, altho we do on occassion fail...)...
This is an instance of the aforementioned problem. The first issue you have is taking the discussion wildly out of context. (Radically misunderstood my views). You have discussed whether or not your post is a complaint, that was not relevant to our discussion. The above cited post evinces exactly how disorganized your thinking is.
it is not. it prevents me from spending my time saying boorish things to boorish people..
The activity of writing such posts is what prevents you from saying boorish things to boorish people?
Lets summarize your argument up this point.
Proposition 1: My remark is not a complaint.
Proposition 2: My remark is means to the end of avoiding saying boorish things to boorish people.
These two propositions appear almost completely unconnected and once more, irrelevant to the propositions they purport to respond to.
it furthermore, some (crazy mfs!) believe, contrary to you, that lengthy exposition in the form of logically reasoned and ever-so-tediously deduced premises, built one at a time and ticking slower than the long hand on the clock, is *pretty much* the most impotent way you could ever say anything (at least in matters we actually care about. we try to cleanse ourselves of such self-indulgence, altho we do on occassion fail...)..
Proposition 3: Some NFs write well reasoned arguments.
That is true, such NFs have a well developed Thinking function and are therefore adept at logical reasoning. You can become one of such NFs by accepting my advise.
Proposition 4: Explaining your thoughts in the format of proofs is an "impotent way, or an ineffective way to get your point across.
That is not true, logicians and mathematicians can express in one formula what writers of English must express in a lengthy paragraph. Such a format facilitates our thinking because it prunes away irrelevant material. It allows for us to focus on the essence of the issue.
It is the most effective way of communication known to the learned world.
Your argument can be summarized as follows;
Premise 1: I write posts to avoid wasting time making boorish remarks.
Premise 2:Some NFs write well reasoned things.
Conclusion: Writing your thoughts in a format of logical proofs is an ineffective way to communicate and logical reasoning is not necessary for some things.
Problems with this?
The two premises are not connected to each other and neither one of them is relevant to the conclusion. In this instance the truth of the two premises does not guarantee the truth of the conclusion. That is the definition of an invalid argument, of which you have unwittingly provided a clear-cut example.
Does this have anything to do with your problems communicating? You decide.
logical reasoning is absolutely necessary for some things, and it is totally useless in others. it's why i can find spinoza interesting (via deleuze), but would NEVER waste my time reading his embarrassing geometric proofs. i appreciate your tone, tho, it really makes up for the fact that most of your post was totally devoid of any useful insight....)..
That is right. Logical reasoning is necessary only for solving problems. Your severe difficulties in communication is a problem to solve.
So, get to work.
The above post ought not to be construed as an attack on your character but as an argument for why you need to buy this book.
Amazon.com: The Logic Book: Merrie Bergmann, James Moor, Jack Nelson: Books
As for these points we are just fine with logical reasoning. We are far from irrational. When we try to express this to other people it sounds illogical at first until we think of a way to make them "get it." Te for INFPs is an exterior function... applying logic to things. This doesn't mean we don't understand things internally. I for one do just fine with logical reasoning, people understand what I'm talking about, things go smooth. It just takes a little while (a few seconds or several) for me to think of how to make that happen. INFJs have the same problem, internal understanding but not being able to express it as first until they think about for a few moments.
It's not a problem really. The only "problem" is that we have to think of a logical response and also think of how to make it make sense to the other person. Once you get that down then you're fine.
We usually make sense to ourselves as we naively convince ourselves that whatever we want to believe in makes sense. If your thoughts truly make sense you should be able to write them down in an argument form and they ought to be recognized as deductively valid by rules of logical inferrence. Most INFs don't have this skill, yet one they would benefit from. Thus, they feel that they make sense to themselves and not to others because they really do not make any sense, but have naively convinced themselves that they do.
INTJs have Ni just like the INFJs. They have this problem too..
INTJs have less of this problem because they have only one task, you have too.
They already know what they want to say, as their thoughts are somewhat clear. They merely need to put them into words.
INFs need a lot more time to organize their thoughts. (As you have mentioned that sometimes it takes you months to discover what you want to say.) Note, the following is a prerequisite for putting thoughts into words, ensuring that they have a proper structure.
Certainly you can transmute your thoughts into verbal format without having organized them, but then again they won't make any sense to others unless yourself and others have a very similar way of looking at life. In short, an argument of wishful thinking makes sense to people only when it offers a conclusion that they desire. So, if the people you are communicating with like your conclusion, your thoughts do not need to make any sense, you can convince them to believe in whatever it is that you want them to believe in almost as easily as you have already naively befooled yourself.
However, this is not the problem the author of this thread is concerned. He is talking of a general problem of communicating with others. Others in this case likely include people who do not have a way of looking at life that is very similar to himself and the INFs in question.
