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[INFJ] inf complexity and communication

the state i am in

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very specifically- i think infj has the most difficulty communicating of any type with infp close behind.

infp can't articulate its feelings and values, they are decidedly private and deliberately fuzzy. they exist internally and their articulation only happens in the rarest of occasions (art, saintly gestures, etc). plus they feel themselves more clearly and use that as an extremely powerful internal compass. they live out their ideals and suffer their contradictions. they embody or become or perform them, acting them out, and discover the boundaries of their values thru experience and experimentation.

infj is relying on Ni to formulate its thought, speech, and feeling. Ni is the worst form giver possible, bc it is only a glimpse of something, a revelation, an illumination that can be held together only for a second. you're trying to construct logically flowing (yet unbastardized) meaningful speech out of Fe and Ti when the only thing you have to go on is an invisible holograph that you sort of feel but can't really reconstruct or remember.

not to mention that infj needs more desperately than infp to explicitly articulate and express its understandings. it is its whole mode of operation, its whole reason for existing, raison d'etre. to symbolize it, to create a meaningful artifact out of it, to congeal it into something powerful that will explode and impact everything around it.

personally, all my life it's like i've been staring at this picture far off in the distance or this shape in the clouds that i can't fully see, and it's all i ever want to talk about. i want to grasp it finally and completely with total conviction and understanding. but i don't even know what it is, can't see it, don't even remember half the time where to look...
 

Anja

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These are interesting comments.

I think the part about acting out my contradictions was painfully true for me when I was younger. Believe I've even mentioned recently that in order to discover my boundaries I've needed to violate them.


But I believe that all my life, whether I was clear on my opinions or not, I was not private about them.

I think I understand about that "place" somewhere out there and the desire to reach that spot.

I'm wondering if this may not be a factor that INFs have in common in early development. The first I became aware of that mystical goal was when I was four.
 

nanook

a scream in a vortex
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i think intuition is all about patterns (form giving). therefore i think i can express myself better than most, except they don't understand anything that is based on causal forms (movements).

there is some truth to the "hold together for only one second"... this should be enough to download the form into language, but it depends on language skill, and in my case this requires language anarchy, that is to say i can not be bothered with paying attention to the beauty of language or its spelling, because it would destroy my clarity about the content (patter/form) that i am communicating.

i have noticed, that SiFe and NiFe individuals who may be less intelligent or just younger than me, or less daring in using language in their own way (inventing a word now and then), are in deed incapable of saying much.

they would throw in thousand paragraphs consisting of a single sentence each. and some images. and i can connect it all, but other people clearly don't get it. often they are so afraid of the chaos of associations, that they think it is trolling, or "borderline" as in "he/she cant be understood by common sense, how terrible, therefore he/she needs, professional help, get him/her out of the message board" LOL

writing something helps a lot, cause focusing is harder in a group or one on one dialog, but its possible.

in the case of a close relationship i do suffer a lot from not "feeling myself", that is so say, i believe that i have to communicate Fi values, because i am talking to an Fi person (and being Fe i want to relate by being alike), but i just dont have them. this can be helped, if understood. i dont have to have any. its common that the other person would rather accept, that i can not come up with clear judgments about what i want, in that particular moment, than i would be ready to accept it.


not to mention that infj needs more desperately than infp to explicitly articulate and express its understandings.

[...]

personally, all my life it's like i've been staring at this picture far off in the distance or this shape in the clouds that i can't fully see, and it's all i ever want to talk about. i want to grasp it finally and completely with total conviction and understanding. but i don't even know what it is, can't see it, don't even remember half the time where to look...

this should be common to all intuitive types (albeit for some to a slightly lesser degree), it should be the same for an NiFe (if you are realy FiNe as you seem to think).

it is different for isfp (SiFe) and enfj (FeNi)
 

BlackCat

Shaman
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SiFe = ISFJ. ISFP = FiSe.

I can agree that I generally have difficulty saying what I want to say sometimes, but in general I can just give it to people straight, even if it's pretty abstract. I often find people liking me just for being myself, so I really don't have many problems in the communication area.
 

briochick

half-nut member
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You make some good points.

I think I felt like that as an adolescent and perhaps unable to express my visions as a child but as a child I was talkative and I've picked it back up as an adult. I find that (usually) I'm pretty good at expressing how I feel and what my visions are. They can get very abstract but that's where allusion and illistration comes in. Not that I don't confuse people, I'm not a linear thinker and neither am I a linear speaker. I think Ne helps.
 

nanook

a scream in a vortex
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obviously i like to use the 4 letter code of socionics, so i am allways adding the functions, so i think i don't need to be "corrected". please disagree silently.

as for real life communication, it helps me with focusing, if i put my index finger on my "third eye" (whatever), giving some pressure. its a weird thing to do. weird as in Jeremy Davies
 

BlackCat

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obviously i like to use the 4 letter code of socionics, so i am allays adding the functions, so i think i don't need to be "corrected". please disagree silently.

I didn't realize you used socionics, sorry.

I think INFJs have an easier time communicating once they get in touch with their Ti, my INFJ best friend is well in touch with it and he has no social problems whatsoever.
 

nanook

a scream in a vortex
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i had a good deal of weird metaphysical discussions with infx (where x is the opposite on mine x, whichever that one really is) and i think we have about the same trouble understanding each other. really language sucks. for both of us. differently but equally much. to the point where i had to use my arms, to imitate a boxer's movement, which was supposed to be a metaphor for intuition. she claimed to understand me :D
 

ajblaise

Minister of Propagandhi
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I feel like INFs, especially INFJs, tend to have more complex/wacky/crazy/pet theory/incomplete ideas going on in their head than they are able to communicate efficiently, sometimes because they don't feel like their thought will make sense to other people or that it will be received well. While INTs, have an easier time expressing the fringe nuttyness going on in their mind in a somewhat absorbable and rational way.
 

cascadeco

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I can agree that I generally have difficulty saying what I want to say sometimes, but in general I can just give it to people straight, even if it's pretty abstract. I often find people liking me just for being myself, so I really don't have many problems in the communication area.

This resonates with me, but only based on external feedback re. my communication skills. Historically I never perceived myself as being a good communicator.

So there's a gap between how I feel my skills are, and how other people feel my skills are. Because I have been told my communication skills are a strength of mine. I believe the gap is the fact that I am aware of all sorts of things in my head that I would like to articulate but am unable to -- at least in a timely face-to-face manner (written medium is another matter though) -- and what I DO end up saying. What I do end up saying I think ends up being rather clear and concise, but lacking in details (unless of course I'm on the job, or the question posed to me demands specifics).

I also speak relatively slowly if I'm having trouble translating what's in my mind, and there may be several pauses. I tend to think my overall communication style is vague, especially if the subject matter is epic and big. So I tend to require specific questions, if specific answers/thoughts are desired. Otherwise, with very general questions, I am often at a complete loss of how to begin, or where to begin. (So that's something I've been known to do -- I'll ask someone to ask me something more specific, so as to avoid this deer-in-headlights feeling)
 

BlackCat

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With my INFJ friend I can usually intuit what he's trying to say, I think he likes that about me. I actually understand him. :D What I meant before was general chit chat with people, he does often has trouble getting his point down around things that matter to him or that he's thought about a good deal. When we are around people he will start trying to say something, and if he fails miserably I'll be like "I think he means this" and he will be like "yeah" and gives me a look like he's relieved. :tongue:
 

cascadeco

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What I meant before was general chit chat with people, he does often has trouble getting his point down around things that matter to him or that he's thought about a good deal. When we are around people he will start trying to say something, and if he fails miserably I'll be like "I think he means this" and he will be like "yeah" and gives me a look like he's relieved. :tongue:

haha. :) Well, I can probably relate to that a bit too. Social settings, esp. group settings, can be harder for me, because of the aforementioned slower-speaking style (which doesn't translate well with groups). And yeah, something I've put a lot of thought into - ex, religion - yeah, that's a topic I would be more apt to fail miserably at.

But 1:1 I'm much better, and of course with other INFJ's none of this really matters because they can translate one sentence that I say into a whole paragraph of everything that's behind that sentence that I said. :smile:
 

CrystalViolet

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I can only really talk about INFP communication. I'm very, very good at reading people in real life. That's sound conceited, but I don't mean to be, it just is.
I'm told, although it depends who, I'm not quite so easy to understand. Nobodies quite sure what motivates me.
A good friend of mine once said to me, the only time he can pull one over me is first thing in the morning, but otherwise according to him I never miss a trick. Apparently he watched me closely during a few conversations (I should find that creepy, I know, but he's very intense), and noticed I don't just listen like most people, I'm watching facial expressions and body language....I thought every one did that, but according him it's on a much more conscious level for me (I never noticed), and I'm always thinking, it never stops. Ah! He's a very funny man....beside the point though, I do have a good deal of trouble communicating what I think, though. I get misunderstood often, though probably not as often as I think. Only close friends know how much I really struggle with communicating things. Honestly, I struggle with language, and I only speak english.
 

nanook

a scream in a vortex
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a lot of people who would label themselves sensitive (usually NF types) know this drowning in a world of observations below language, like when you watch cylons or clingons and feel that you understand anything, that is important; you dont feel like you are missing something. but you really don't understand the language.

for me it is traumatic, because i have been missing so much concrete information in school, eg meeting points during excursions. getting lost in prague aint fun.
 

the state i am in

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I feel like INFs, especially INFJs, tend to have more complex/wacky/crazy/pet theory/incomplete ideas going on in their head than they are able to communicate efficiently, sometimes because they don't feel like their thought will make sense to other people or that it will be received well. While INTs, have an easier time expressing the fringe nuttyness going on in their mind in a somewhat absorbable and rational way.

yes. i much enjoy talking to intps bc they don't waste my time. they either say something extremely intelligent or don't. i think Ti is more conceptual. it is still specific and rooted in examples that can be somewhat concretely described. more attention to scaled mappings. they understand complexity and interconnectedness but in a different down-to-earth language-friendly way.

i can speak very clearly if needed. i just won't be able to say anything of great interest, import, or value to me. the theories ARE incomplete bc the abstraction is sensed before the circuitry is in place to run smoothly and use tertiary Ti to trace all of the connections concretely in an organized and systematic way. when i go back and get the information i need, or when i employ one of my int knowledge-base friends/research team to fill in the blanks, i'm &%*(@# godlike.
 

the state i am in

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This resonates with me, but only based on external feedback re. my communication skills. Historically I never perceived myself as being a good communicator.

So there's a gap between how I feel my skills are, and how other people feel my skills are. Because I have been told my communication skills are a strength of mine. I believe the gap is the fact that I am aware of all sorts of things in my head that I would like to articulate but am unable to -- at least in a timely face-to-face manner (written medium is another matter though) -- and what I DO end up saying. What I do end up saying I think ends up being rather clear and concise, but lacking in details (unless of course I'm on the job, or the question posed to me demands specifics).

I also speak relatively slowly if I'm having trouble translating what's in my mind, and there may be several pauses. I tend to think my overall communication style is vague, especially if the subject matter is epic and big. So I tend to require specific questions, if specific answers/thoughts are desired. Otherwise, with very general questions, I am often at a complete loss of how to begin, or where to begin. (So that's something I've been known to do -- I'll ask someone to ask me something more specific, so as to avoid this deer-in-headlights feeling)

this is so well-described. big picture thinking often causes us to be extremely vague and ambiguous when we have not logically planned out how we want to inculcate our words with the meaning of our vision.

and sometimes in doing so (in my experience), we think we have something better than we do- it's just a vague, ambiguous, undefined hypothesis that is not nearly as good as we think it is.

i agree that attacking extremely specific problems/questions is a level of analysis and perception that we can do, but sometimes it has an ability to slip unnoticed past our attention and later bog us down. as we mature we get better at shifting back and forth (so i hope).
 

Siúil a Rúin

when the colors fade
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...infj is relying on Ni to formulate its thought, speech, and feeling. Ni is the worst form giver possible, bc it is only a glimpse of something, a revelation, an illumination that can be held together only for a second. you're trying to construct logically flowing (yet unbastardized) meaningful speech out of Fe and Ti when the only thing you have to go on is an invisible holograph that you sort of feel but can't really reconstruct or remember.

not to mention that infj needs more desperately than infp to explicitly articulate and express its understandings. it is its whole mode of operation, its whole reason for existing, raison d'etre. to symbolize it, to create a meaningful artifact out of it, to congeal it into something powerful that will explode and impact everything around it.

personally, all my life it's like i've been staring at this picture far off in the distance or this shape in the clouds that i can't fully see, and it's all i ever want to talk about. i want to grasp it finally and completely with total conviction and understanding. but i don't even know what it is, can't see it, don't even remember half the time where to look...
This resonates with me and describes my motivation as a composer (my primary training and profession). I have an ongoing sense of peering over the precipice, of having a sense of a picture too large to hold in my mind in most everything I relate to. Trying to communicate that is a deep frustration. In my creative work, I have a sense of something much greater than I manage to formulate in the real world. It is what drives me to keep at it and continually sharpen my ability to communicate even though it feels a bit like a lost cause. I tend to view other people as almost limitless in complexity, so I can't conclude that I know them well even if I have a great many details and nuances collected in relationship to them. It can seem almost disrespectful to approach it otherwise.

This is also why it is difficult for me to be particularly opinionated - because of this ongoing sense of only glimpsing and being lost in the vastness. I realize that the descriptions usually read INFJs are opinionated, but it seems an irony if one is really thinking in the terms described here. That is a core reason I question my type - also the poetic justice bent which is not me at all. On one level I am always at a complete loss and so continually work towards refining my hypotheses, although always without certainty. This makes me work especially hard to formulate even a hypothesis. I suspect the evidence I gather for a hypothesis tends to outweigh what most people need for a certain conclusion. (Edit: Sometimes I deliberately practice forming and expressing opinions especially if I have toyed with the hypothesis for a long time)
 

DigitalMethod

Content. Content?
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May 4, 2008
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970
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personally, all my life it's like i've been staring at this picture far off in the distance or this shape in the clouds that i can't fully see, and it's all i ever want to talk about. i want to grasp it finally and completely with total conviction and understanding. but i don't even know what it is, can't see it, don't even remember half the time where to look...

Oh wow, that is quite a beautiful quote in my opinion.
I relate.
 

Synapse

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Has a tendency to want to talk about theory and dig behind the surface while most people I know prefer surface talk.

Yes its an issue communicating, its gotten me into trouble too, gets even worse when I'm passionate about something. I've never been able to articulate or express how I feel or think on any level how I want to. Always comes out distorted and less clear then I intended it to. I've likened it to the thorn in the paw effect. Thinking once I remove that thorn in the paw my clarity and communication will be back. And then I'll be able to express myself freely like I've always imagined and thought I could.

I dream of the day when my thoughts can be translated like that. Except that is all it is, I can't type fast enough to translate even a fraction of the ideas that carousel in my brain sometimes, or at least when they are there. Which have done the disappearing trick on me in recent time like I could have sworn my brain went all vegetative on me. Well I suppose if even meditation couldn't get me to focus than something was seriously blocking my communication between my temporal and frontal lobe. At least that part has slightly lifted.
 
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