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  1. #41
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    INTJs have Ni just like the INFJs. They have this problem too.

    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Exactly! It's almost as if you're translating from the language you can understand in your mind into something that's understandable to the other person. It takes time
    It's weird. I know what I want to say, but the words just aren't there. I know how it feels and how it pertains to whatever we were talking about, what I want to say. I can get everything right about it except for how to put it into words. This is why it takes me a few moments to gather my thoughts about certain things. I don't have this problem all of the time, but I do go through this every day. I don't consider it something that gets in my way.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    INTJs have Ni just like the INFJs. They have this problem too.
    I know that INTJs have Ni just like INFJs. I was just wondering if it manifested in a slightly different way for INTJs because of the different judging functions...

  3. #43
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Te vs Fe for clear-cut communication, totally different purposes. infj is more of a linguistic chameleon. i can convey the *%U@ out of any attitude in whatever style i so choose, but i won't ever write a brilliant plan of action in sequential order.

    still, intj does usually have to take their time to express their thoughts. that's why they write annoyingly long systematic expositions of their ideas that go on for thousands of pages... or they just don't ever talk about their work to anyone ever.

    i imagine the writer tom wolfe (not thomas) of electric koolaid acid test fame and others, was an infj. he's always writing from inside the voice of the characters in his essays, and punctuation has never been so thrilling...

  4. #44
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    The problem of communication is a result of not only the abstract nature of these two types, but also poor logical reasoning skills.[/url]
    you mistake my claim for a complaint. it is not. it prevents me from spending my time saying boorish things to boorish people. furthermore, some (crazy mfs!) believe, contrary to you, that lengthy exposition in the form of logically reasoned and ever-so-tediously deduced premises, built one at a time and ticking slower than the long hand on the clock, is *pretty much* the most impotent way you could ever say anything (at least in matters we actually care about. we try to cleanse ourselves of such self-indulgence, altho we do on occassion fail...)

    logical reasoning is absolutely necessary for some things, and it is totally useless in others. it's why i can find spinoza interesting (via deleuze), but would NEVER waste my time reading his embarrassing geometric proofs. i appreciate your tone, tho, it really makes up for the fact that most of your post was totally devoid of any useful insight.

    ps you might want to graduate from your analytic philosophy, um, phase. claiming that logical reasoning skills are the only aspect of understanding present in the "making sense" of something shows you need to get over your logos theology/grammar police complex and get out into the world and have a look around. or at least read better philosophy books...

  5. #45
    Junior Member blacksheep7895's Avatar
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    couldn't have said that better

  6. #46
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    you mistake my claim for a complaint. it is not. it prevents me from spending my time saying boorish things to boorish people. furthermore, some (crazy mfs!) believe, contrary to you, that lengthy exposition in the form of logically reasoned and ever-so-tediously deduced premises, built one at a time and ticking slower than the long hand on the clock, is *pretty much* the most impotent way you could ever say anything (at least in matters we actually care about. we try to cleanse ourselves of such self-indulgence, altho we do on occassion fail...)

    logical reasoning is absolutely necessary for some things, and it is totally useless in others. it's why i can find spinoza interesting (via deleuze), but would NEVER waste my time reading his embarrassing geometric proofs. i appreciate your tone, tho, it really makes up for the fact that most of your post was totally devoid of any useful insight.

    ps you might want to graduate from your analytic philosophy, um, phase. claiming that logical reasoning skills are the only aspect of understanding present in the "making sense" of something shows you need to get over your logos theology/grammar police complex and get out into the world and have a look around. or at least read better philosophy books...

    Fine, do not attempt to develop your logical reasoning skills. You can still be understood. You can be understood if you find people who agree with your views and have a similar way of looking at life. Keep in mind that many New Age movements and other Spiritual cults were illogical and endorsed many absurdities, yet they were also understood and appreciated by many. So, not all is lost.


    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    you mistake my claim for a complaint. ...
    What are you talking about? I regard your claim as one that states a problem. Such a problem is as follows; INFs have trouble communicating. I helped you out by pointing out the nature of the problem and offering a solution.


    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    it is not. it prevents me from spending my time saying boorish things to boorish people. furthermore, some (crazy mfs!) believe, contrary to you, that lengthy exposition in the form of logically reasoned and ever-so-tediously deduced premises, built one at a time and ticking slower than the long hand on the clock, is *pretty much* the most impotent way you could ever say anything (at least in matters we actually care about. we try to cleanse ourselves of such self-indulgence, altho we do on occassion fail...)...
    This is an instance of the aforementioned problem. The first issue you have is taking the discussion wildly out of context. (Radically misunderstood my views). You have discussed whether or not your post is a complaint, that was not relevant to our discussion. The above cited post evinces exactly how disorganized your thinking is.



    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    it is not. it prevents me from spending my time saying boorish things to boorish people..
    The activity of writing such posts is what prevents you from saying boorish things to boorish people?

    Lets summarize your argument up this point.

    Proposition 1: My remark is not a complaint.

    Proposition 2: My remark is means to the end of avoiding saying boorish things to boorish people.

    These two propositions appear almost completely unconnected and once more, irrelevant to the propositions they purport to respond to.


    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    it furthermore, some (crazy mfs!) believe, contrary to you, that lengthy exposition in the form of logically reasoned and ever-so-tediously deduced premises, built one at a time and ticking slower than the long hand on the clock, is *pretty much* the most impotent way you could ever say anything (at least in matters we actually care about. we try to cleanse ourselves of such self-indulgence, altho we do on occassion fail...)..
    Proposition 3: Some NFs write well reasoned arguments.

    That is true, such NFs have a well developed Thinking function and are therefore adept at logical reasoning. You can become one of such NFs by accepting my advise.

    Proposition 4: Explaining your thoughts in the format of proofs is an "impotent way, or an ineffective way to get your point across.

    That is not true, logicians and mathematicians can express in one formula what writers of English must express in a lengthy paragraph. Such a format facilitates our thinking because it prunes away irrelevant material. It allows for us to focus on the essence of the issue.

    It is the most effective way of communication known to the learned world.

    Your argument can be summarized as follows;

    Premise 1: I write posts to avoid wasting time making boorish remarks.

    Premise 2:Some NFs write well reasoned things.

    Conclusion: Writing your thoughts in a format of logical proofs is an ineffective way to communicate and logical reasoning is not necessary for some things.

    Problems with this?

    The two premises are not connected to each other and neither one of them is relevant to the conclusion. In this instance the truth of the two premises does not guarantee the truth of the conclusion. That is the definition of an invalid argument, of which you have unwittingly provided a clear-cut example.

    Does this have anything to do with your problems communicating? You decide.

    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    logical reasoning is absolutely necessary for some things, and it is totally useless in others. it's why i can find spinoza interesting (via deleuze), but would NEVER waste my time reading his embarrassing geometric proofs. i appreciate your tone, tho, it really makes up for the fact that most of your post was totally devoid of any useful insight....)..
    That is right. Logical reasoning is necessary only for solving problems. Your severe difficulties in communication is a problem to solve.

    So, get to work.

    The above post ought not to be construed as an attack on your character but as an argument for why you need to buy this book.

    Amazon.com: The Logic Book: Merrie Bergmann, James Moor, Jack Nelson: Books






    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    As for these points we are just fine with logical reasoning. We are far from irrational. When we try to express this to other people it sounds illogical at first until we think of a way to make them "get it." Te for INFPs is an exterior function... applying logic to things. This doesn't mean we don't understand things internally. I for one do just fine with logical reasoning, people understand what I'm talking about, things go smooth. It just takes a little while (a few seconds or several) for me to think of how to make that happen. INFJs have the same problem, internal understanding but not being able to express it as first until they think about for a few moments.

    It's not a problem really. The only "problem" is that we have to think of a logical response and also think of how to make it make sense to the other person. Once you get that down then you're fine.
    We usually make sense to ourselves as we naively convince ourselves that whatever we want to believe in makes sense. If your thoughts truly make sense you should be able to write them down in an argument form and they ought to be recognized as deductively valid by rules of logical inferrence. Most INFs don't have this skill, yet one they would benefit from. Thus, they feel that they make sense to themselves and not to others because they really do not make any sense, but have naively convinced themselves that they do.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    INTJs have Ni just like the INFJs. They have this problem too..
    INTJs have less of this problem because they have only one task, you have too.

    They already know what they want to say, as their thoughts are somewhat clear. They merely need to put them into words.

    INFs need a lot more time to organize their thoughts. (As you have mentioned that sometimes it takes you months to discover what you want to say.) Note, the following is a prerequisite for putting thoughts into words, ensuring that they have a proper structure.

    Certainly you can transmute your thoughts into verbal format without having organized them, but then again they won't make any sense to others unless yourself and others have a very similar way of looking at life. In short, an argument of wishful thinking makes sense to people only when it offers a conclusion that they desire. So, if the people you are communicating with like your conclusion, your thoughts do not need to make any sense, you can convince them to believe in whatever it is that you want them to believe in almost as easily as you have already naively befooled yourself.

    However, this is not the problem the author of this thread is concerned. He is talking of a general problem of communicating with others. Others in this case likely include people who do not have a way of looking at life that is very similar to himself and the INFs in question.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    The INFPs I have been friends with, dated, and lived with - they especially had a hard time communicating their desires and displeasure.
    I imagine that part of this could be due to the INFP not wanting to burden you with their own desires, even on very simple things such as fetching them something to drink. When their needs aren't being filled over and over, stress takes over, and they might lash out in the way that you've described.

    I've kind of intuited that I should do them minor favors even if they don't ask me to (or even if they outright say "no"), but phrase it in such a way that I'm doing it for myself. I'll grab myself two drinks, "in case I get extra thirsty" As I get to know them better, it seems that I'm more able to pick up on what they do need.

    I've found that it does take some prodding or some understanding to find out what they're actually after.. which is completely contrary to my usually direct nature. Not to say that it's a bad thing at all--in fact, it's completely worth it--but it takes some extra effort for me to see things from their perspective.

    Someone correct me if I'm wrong.. I'm really wanting to understand the INFx mode of communication.

  8. #48
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Yesterday at the doctor, I asked my dad if he felt the same "disconnect" and fluid time sloshing around thing, and he said yes, that it wasn't something he could control and that he was always stepping between past and future with very little spent in the present. He said he has trouble staying in the present for any length of time. He's seeing an ISFP - he says she really helps him enjoy present moments and makes them more meaningful.


    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    re: candy pants, i see two possibilities, you'll have to enlighten me further if they are unsatisfactory
    1) i'm imagining something so shiny that it could only be the glossy and sugary wrapper for laffy taffy, and nothing else
    2) underwear made out of fruit roll-ups, i've seen monkeys in diapers so pants might be a decidedly "loose" definition. either way, ginger definitely is involved.
    You struck upon it directly. All fifty gingery glossy sugar yards of it. (Or something... lol)

    also, you simply must discover what this mysterious and (i assume) delicious fruit is. winter sucks.
    The delicious fruit is a cross between Novocaine and cheap jelly beans filled with electric sunshine. (Or something...)

    Winter hates my feet. Why no love, Winter?? Why no love?!

    i also just want to explain, and this is an example of infj self-disclosure, that the cold and prickly feeling when Ni short-circuits was inspired by harry potter. damn you, lord voldemort, damn you and your death eaters!
    Ni primaries are odd fish. I can literally watch it working on my father's expressions and actions.

    i do imagine that enf generally does play a large part in helping refine the fashion sense of the inf. fine then, i'll put on a pair a pants, but i WON'T LIKE IT.
    I would never ask you to *like* leiderhosen. But you show your bravery by wearing them. I commend you! *salute*

    Quote Originally Posted by lane777 View Post
    Sometimes - if they break my gaze. Otherwise, I hold their gaze. Most of the body language I pick up on though, is through peripheral vision. Unless they're a hand talker, then I'll glance at the hands from time to time.

    It's fun to try and type someone from a distance, just based on just body language.
    Peripheral vision? How do you use that to read people?

  9. #49
    ..... Intricate Mystic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    No offense, but this INFJ would rank reading that book up there with having bamboo shoots shoved under my fingernails.

  10. #50
    Glycerine
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    Quote Originally Posted by lane777 View Post
    Sometimes - if they break my gaze. Otherwise, I hold their gaze. Most of the body language I pick up on though, is through peripheral vision. Unless they're a hand talker, then I'll glance at the hands from time to time.

    It's fun to try and type someone from a distance, just based on just body language.
    man, thats exactly how I am. I'll be spacing out and then all of sudden, I notice something about somebody or I'll notice that they are looking at me through peripheral vision. It's fun to do that because most think you are being oblivious but, in fact, you are picking up on the subtleties.

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