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  1. #11
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    I can agree that I generally have difficulty saying what I want to say sometimes, but in general I can just give it to people straight, even if it's pretty abstract. I often find people liking me just for being myself, so I really don't have many problems in the communication area.
    This resonates with me, but only based on external feedback re. my communication skills. Historically I never perceived myself as being a good communicator.

    So there's a gap between how I feel my skills are, and how other people feel my skills are. Because I have been told my communication skills are a strength of mine. I believe the gap is the fact that I am aware of all sorts of things in my head that I would like to articulate but am unable to -- at least in a timely face-to-face manner (written medium is another matter though) -- and what I DO end up saying. What I do end up saying I think ends up being rather clear and concise, but lacking in details (unless of course I'm on the job, or the question posed to me demands specifics).

    I also speak relatively slowly if I'm having trouble translating what's in my mind, and there may be several pauses. I tend to think my overall communication style is vague, especially if the subject matter is epic and big. So I tend to require specific questions, if specific answers/thoughts are desired. Otherwise, with very general questions, I am often at a complete loss of how to begin, or where to begin. (So that's something I've been known to do -- I'll ask someone to ask me something more specific, so as to avoid this deer-in-headlights feeling)
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  2. #12
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    With my INFJ friend I can usually intuit what he's trying to say, I think he likes that about me. I actually understand him. What I meant before was general chit chat with people, he does often has trouble getting his point down around things that matter to him or that he's thought about a good deal. When we are around people he will start trying to say something, and if he fails miserably I'll be like "I think he means this" and he will be like "yeah" and gives me a look like he's relieved.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

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  3. #13
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    What I meant before was general chit chat with people, he does often has trouble getting his point down around things that matter to him or that he's thought about a good deal. When we are around people he will start trying to say something, and if he fails miserably I'll be like "I think he means this" and he will be like "yeah" and gives me a look like he's relieved.
    haha. :-) Well, I can probably relate to that a bit too. Social settings, esp. group settings, can be harder for me, because of the aforementioned slower-speaking style (which doesn't translate well with groups). And yeah, something I've put a lot of thought into - ex, religion - yeah, that's a topic I would be more apt to fail miserably at.

    But 1:1 I'm much better, and of course with other INFJ's none of this really matters because they can translate one sentence that I say into a whole paragraph of everything that's behind that sentence that I said.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  4. #14
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    I can only really talk about INFP communication. I'm very, very good at reading people in real life. That's sound conceited, but I don't mean to be, it just is.
    I'm told, although it depends who, I'm not quite so easy to understand. Nobodies quite sure what motivates me.
    A good friend of mine once said to me, the only time he can pull one over me is first thing in the morning, but otherwise according to him I never miss a trick. Apparently he watched me closely during a few conversations (I should find that creepy, I know, but he's very intense), and noticed I don't just listen like most people, I'm watching facial expressions and body language....I thought every one did that, but according him it's on a much more conscious level for me (I never noticed), and I'm always thinking, it never stops. Ah! He's a very funny man....beside the point though, I do have a good deal of trouble communicating what I think, though. I get misunderstood often, though probably not as often as I think. Only close friends know how much I really struggle with communicating things. Honestly, I struggle with language, and I only speak english.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

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  5. #15
    a scream in a vortex nanook's Avatar
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    a lot of people who would label themselves sensitive (usually NF types) know this drowning in a world of observations below language, like when you watch cylons or clingons and feel that you understand anything, that is important; you dont feel like you are missing something. but you really don't understand the language.

    for me it is traumatic, because i have been missing so much concrete information in school, eg meeting points during excursions. getting lost in prague aint fun.

  6. #16
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    I feel like INFs, especially INFJs, tend to have more complex/wacky/crazy/pet theory/incomplete ideas going on in their head than they are able to communicate efficiently, sometimes because they don't feel like their thought will make sense to other people or that it will be received well. While INTs, have an easier time expressing the fringe nuttyness going on in their mind in a somewhat absorbable and rational way.
    yes. i much enjoy talking to intps bc they don't waste my time. they either say something extremely intelligent or don't. i think Ti is more conceptual. it is still specific and rooted in examples that can be somewhat concretely described. more attention to scaled mappings. they understand complexity and interconnectedness but in a different down-to-earth language-friendly way.

    i can speak very clearly if needed. i just won't be able to say anything of great interest, import, or value to me. the theories ARE incomplete bc the abstraction is sensed before the circuitry is in place to run smoothly and use tertiary Ti to trace all of the connections concretely in an organized and systematic way. when i go back and get the information i need, or when i employ one of my int knowledge-base friends/research team to fill in the blanks, i'm &%*(@# godlike.

  7. #17
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascademn View Post
    This resonates with me, but only based on external feedback re. my communication skills. Historically I never perceived myself as being a good communicator.

    So there's a gap between how I feel my skills are, and how other people feel my skills are. Because I have been told my communication skills are a strength of mine. I believe the gap is the fact that I am aware of all sorts of things in my head that I would like to articulate but am unable to -- at least in a timely face-to-face manner (written medium is another matter though) -- and what I DO end up saying. What I do end up saying I think ends up being rather clear and concise, but lacking in details (unless of course I'm on the job, or the question posed to me demands specifics).

    I also speak relatively slowly if I'm having trouble translating what's in my mind, and there may be several pauses. I tend to think my overall communication style is vague, especially if the subject matter is epic and big. So I tend to require specific questions, if specific answers/thoughts are desired. Otherwise, with very general questions, I am often at a complete loss of how to begin, or where to begin. (So that's something I've been known to do -- I'll ask someone to ask me something more specific, so as to avoid this deer-in-headlights feeling)
    this is so well-described. big picture thinking often causes us to be extremely vague and ambiguous when we have not logically planned out how we want to inculcate our words with the meaning of our vision.

    and sometimes in doing so (in my experience), we think we have something better than we do- it's just a vague, ambiguous, undefined hypothesis that is not nearly as good as we think it is.

    i agree that attacking extremely specific problems/questions is a level of analysis and perception that we can do, but sometimes it has an ability to slip unnoticed past our attention and later bog us down. as we mature we get better at shifting back and forth (so i hope).

  8. #18
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    ...infj is relying on Ni to formulate its thought, speech, and feeling. Ni is the worst form giver possible, bc it is only a glimpse of something, a revelation, an illumination that can be held together only for a second. you're trying to construct logically flowing (yet unbastardized) meaningful speech out of Fe and Ti when the only thing you have to go on is an invisible holograph that you sort of feel but can't really reconstruct or remember.

    not to mention that infj needs more desperately than infp to explicitly articulate and express its understandings. it is its whole mode of operation, its whole reason for existing, raison d'etre. to symbolize it, to create a meaningful artifact out of it, to congeal it into something powerful that will explode and impact everything around it.

    personally, all my life it's like i've been staring at this picture far off in the distance or this shape in the clouds that i can't fully see, and it's all i ever want to talk about. i want to grasp it finally and completely with total conviction and understanding. but i don't even know what it is, can't see it, don't even remember half the time where to look...
    This resonates with me and describes my motivation as a composer (my primary training and profession). I have an ongoing sense of peering over the precipice, of having a sense of a picture too large to hold in my mind in most everything I relate to. Trying to communicate that is a deep frustration. In my creative work, I have a sense of something much greater than I manage to formulate in the real world. It is what drives me to keep at it and continually sharpen my ability to communicate even though it feels a bit like a lost cause. I tend to view other people as almost limitless in complexity, so I can't conclude that I know them well even if I have a great many details and nuances collected in relationship to them. It can seem almost disrespectful to approach it otherwise.

    This is also why it is difficult for me to be particularly opinionated - because of this ongoing sense of only glimpsing and being lost in the vastness. I realize that the descriptions usually read INFJs are opinionated, but it seems an irony if one is really thinking in the terms described here. That is a core reason I question my type - also the poetic justice bent which is not me at all. On one level I am always at a complete loss and so continually work towards refining my hypotheses, although always without certainty. This makes me work especially hard to formulate even a hypothesis. I suspect the evidence I gather for a hypothesis tends to outweigh what most people need for a certain conclusion. (Edit: Sometimes I deliberately practice forming and expressing opinions especially if I have toyed with the hypothesis for a long time)
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  9. #19
    Content. Content? DigitalMethod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    personally, all my life it's like i've been staring at this picture far off in the distance or this shape in the clouds that i can't fully see, and it's all i ever want to talk about. i want to grasp it finally and completely with total conviction and understanding. but i don't even know what it is, can't see it, don't even remember half the time where to look...
    Oh wow, that is quite a beautiful quote in my opinion.
    I relate.
    "The life of the individual has meaning only insofar as it aids in making the life of every living thing nobler and more beautiful."
    - Albert Einstein

  10. #20
    Senior Member Synapse's Avatar
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    Has a tendency to want to talk about theory and dig behind the surface while most people I know prefer surface talk.

    Yes its an issue communicating, its gotten me into trouble too, gets even worse when I'm passionate about something. I've never been able to articulate or express how I feel or think on any level how I want to. Always comes out distorted and less clear then I intended it to. I've likened it to the thorn in the paw effect. Thinking once I remove that thorn in the paw my clarity and communication will be back. And then I'll be able to express myself freely like I've always imagined and thought I could.

    I dream of the day when my thoughts can be translated like that. Except that is all it is, I can't type fast enough to translate even a fraction of the ideas that carousel in my brain sometimes, or at least when they are there. Which have done the disappearing trick on me in recent time like I could have sworn my brain went all vegetative on me. Well I suppose if even meditation couldn't get me to focus than something was seriously blocking my communication between my temporal and frontal lobe. At least that part has slightly lifted.

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