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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Somebody called me a bitch today and it was the best compliment I got all day.
    bitch, teach me or forever stick to your blanket!

  2. #32
    Senior Member niffer's Avatar
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    Depends on what they are criticizing. If they are criticizing what I do, and they seem to make a good point, I take it as a wake-up call and make a note to myself to fix it. And then I'll take that criticism and try to see if it can be applied to other aspects of my life in any way, and if they can be then I'll just keep those thoughts with me and do what I can about my behaviour.

    If I find what they are saying is incorrect, or misinterpreted, then I'll talk to them about the faults in their criticism and explain to them my motives/method/whatever they happened to criticize.

    Sometimes, though, people can be hostile to you and be accurately critical of you to show you their disapproval of your character. In that way, it is kind of like what BW decribes as an "attack". First and foremost in cases like these, I would note their hostility and mentally prepare and guard myself as much as possible. There is usually no point in trying to improve on what they have pointed out, unless they are mechanical errors or the like.

    If people criticize who I am, then I will alter my ways depending on how much I value them, or how much I value the aspect of myself after taking into account the logic of their criticism. In these cases though, it is hard to look for the accuracy of their criticisms. I usually just mull it over and experiment around with their ideas of altering myself.
    sparkly sparkly rainbow excretions

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGirl View Post
    holy shit am I a feeler?
    if you like my avatar, it's because i took it myself! : D

  3. #33
    Senior Member Vortex's Avatar
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    I've always hated criticism in the extreme because it's always felt like a personal attack. In the last few years I've tried to work quite a lot on taking it as something objective instead. Now I'm at the point where I'm comfortable if my driving teacher points out to me that I should do something differently or if a teacher disagrees with me. I still try to avoid situations where I might be critizised, though. I'll get really upset if I'm shouted at and avoid verbal fights like the plague. I think I'm much more willing to explore criticism now than I've been before, which probably stems from being a bit more comfortable in my skin and comfortable with my decisions than I used to be. Or maybe I've just gotten better at seeing criticism for what it really is.

  4. #34

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    I take it black, maybe some sugar and cream if I don't know the person very well....

  5. #35
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    For me criticism means one of two things.

    I always analyze what they say from an impersonal angle and then discover that either..

    The critic correctly pointed out a flaw in my performance/character, I appreciate them giving me an opportunity for personal growth

    or the critic made a false claim and then I just dismiss them and move on.

    What does criticism mean to NFs, and what are your most natural reactions to the aforementioned. I'd like to hear from NFPs especially.
    Criticism has two hands.

    Does the one hand know of the other?

  6. #36
    Senior Member developer's Avatar
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    I fire them.

  7. #37
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Default Depends --

    I disagree that ENFPS are warm and fuzzy and FRAGILE.

    I'm very objective and know that most people mean well when they critique. I take constructive criticism very well and indeed seek out the truth from others. Most of the time, I can totally take it and use it to progress things. 99% of things people tell me as far as feedback I've already thought of and acknolwedge the merits (or not) of that POV or point.

    HOWEVER 3 cases where I do NOT take criticism well

    1) The person giving it is frankly being a total bitch. They are NOT trying to be helpful they are trying to tear you down.

    I have only experienced this in the corporate world where you are encouraged to be fake and cuthroat assholes and tear each other apart under the acceptable guise of 'constructive feedback' and reaching very TJ goals of meeting your objectives and SJ goals of 'serving the client and stockholders' and 'having a duty to' etc. etc. etc.

    I found a lot of "feedback" in that environment to be unduly harsh and completely NOT helpful as people did not bother to explain themselves other than to say, YOU SUCK i.e. I AM BETTER THAN YOU.

    Aside from the division director most people critiquing me were my COMPETITION who ironically were also my team members who just wanted to tear someone down to make themselves look better and have a scapegoat.

    Which brings me to

    2) If the criticism comes from someone who I do NOT respect either because I clearly see their 'hidden' agenda OR because I acknowledge my superiority or expertise in the subject matter and basically know that I know more than them. This is not necessarily egomaniacal or having a chip on my shoulder (but I know that this could easily become a defense mechanism for those who lack confidence). You don't have to be an 'expert' for me to respct you and I acknowledge that I can learn from anyone anytime, but for the most part, if I don't respect you as say a performer, I totally am going to ignore any suggestion you have for me to perfect my craft. Because I've already seen your craft and NO THANK YOU I don't want to emulate it.

    All this is compounded if they

    3) Have a superior belittling attitude and NO reason to. I am a really open-minded, tolerant person, but I cannot STAND mediocre sucky people who are full of themselves i.e act like rock star assholes and god's gift to ___ when in fact they are too stupid and talentless to realize that they are stupid and talentless. OR that the only thing going for them is an abrasive, unpleasant personality which is NOT to be confused with expertise or skill. Or they are desperately clawing and rasping their way to the top and basically talking out of their asses ALL THE TIME because they must constantly overcompensate and try so hard to convince those around them that they are in charge that it's pretty transparent and frankly embarassing for them. I am sympathetic to mediocrity, but not if it is accompanied by a total lack of self-awareness (which in art terms means you have NO EYE, NO TALENT, and NO HOPE IN HELL) I also feel if you are truly gifted or born rich/priveleged you should be HUMBLE because it is a GIFT and you are BLESSED and you are lucky in that you can see your true place in the world more than others.

    Conclusion:
    Wow...this turned out to be much more harsh than I intended. I'm a T cusp if that helps...

    And I swear, I'm a humble open-minded person who appreciated the opportunity to grow and learn through other people.

    Except for when those three things above are reached to a T. Then, MY GOD, I become an _STJ.

    HA HA HA HA.

  8. #38
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    If the criticism comes from someone who I do NOT.
    If you are truly objective, you will only focus on what is said. Who it came from should not matter.



    2)
    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    respect either because I clearly see their 'hidden' agenda.
    You do not respect the person because he has a hidden agenda, and not because his statements lack merit? That is an ad hominem logical fallacy. Since he lacks integrity, because you know he has a hidden agenda (therefore is insincere), and because of this character defect of his, his statement must be rejected. This is an error in reasoning because you claim that the statement is to be rejected without showing how it leads to falsehood.



    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    OR because I acknowledge my superiority or expertise in the subject matter and basically know that I know more than them..
    It should not matter if you're better than them or not, how good they are is irrelevant it only matters what they say. Imagine an expert mechanic training a teenager. He shows the boy a chart on how a car is to be constructed and then himself misses one detail. The boy looks at the chart and notices the detail the mechanic missed, and points it out to him. Does it mean that since the boy has less skill than a mechanic, he therefore is not capable of pointing out an error that he commited? That is a palpable falsehood, as we both see that statement A(propounded by mechanic) is contravened by statement B (propounded by the boy). We do not need to note that the statement B was propounded by the boy to notice that it is epistemically superior than statement A. Hence, this supports my previous claim that knowledge of the author of the claim is irrelevant. Only the claim itself is relevant.


    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    You don't have to be an 'expert' for me to respct you..
    Your opinion of the person is not relevant when it comes to the assessment of soundness of the propounded criticism.

    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    ..but for the most part, if I don't respect you as say a performer, I totally am going to ignore any suggestion you have for me to perfect my craft. Because I've already seen your craft and NO THANK YOU I don't want to emulate it.
    See the example of an amateur mechanic pointing out the error of an expert mechanic.


    All this is compounded if they

    3) Have a superior attitude and NO reason to. I am a really open-minded, tolerant person, but I cannot STAND mediocre sucky people who are full of themselves i.e too stupid and talentless to realize that they have no talent and are mediocre and actually think they have talent OR they are desperately clawing and rasping to the top and basically talking out of their asses because they must constantly be bombastic and act like they are in charge.

    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    ..again, people who are shitty writers talkng like experts on 'grammar' (dude, grammar is DEAD, no one is an 'expert' on American English grammar0 and picking at ONE sentence for the grammar which is actually CORRECT. Then I read their project which is FULL of grammatical errors and spelling mistakes. OMG, this peeves me.
    Quality of one's writings should not be assessed in terms of one's adherence to the grammatical convention.

    Quality of writing should be assessed in terms of one's ability to express thoughts as faithfully to what one has had in mind as possible.

    Writing is mere expression. People often would say Charles Dickens is a good writer because he wrote compelling literature that has had a profound impact worldwide. They are not praising his writing, they are merely praising his ideas. It was not the way he wrote that moved people, but what he wrote. One can be a good thinker and a bad writer. Dostoevsky is the case in point. Brothers Karamazov, The Idiot, Crime and Punishment, Notes From Underground should be considered to be among the supreme literature known to man. Yet, they were indeed poorly written. Dostoevksy notoriously broke all rules of punctuation and his thoughts followed in radically idiosyncratic patterns. Not only was it difficult to understand what he was saying because his punctuation made it difficult for one to see what he was focusing on, but also he was out of tune with the perceptions of his readers due to the discrepancies between what he expected his readers to perceive and what they truly tended to perceive after reading his statements.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  9. #39
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    omg Blue Wing -- are you an (aspiring) lawyer? I have not had anyone point out an 'ad hominen' anything in my arguments before. People have called some things I say 'illogical' but don't get that specific.

    I very much agree that points can be valid regardless of who it is coming from or even their agenda. There's a real danger in giving authority only to 'experts' and this kind of tactic is used to keep marginalized people down and invalidate detractors to anything and everything.

    But, I think my NF also puts more weight onto the social impact of what is being said. This goes beyond politicking but yeah, in some situations admitting the other person is right is the same as "losing face" or getting one upped. So I enjoy debating for the sake of debating and have been told that I never admit I'm wrong.

    I figure what's the point of admitting I'm wrong if everyone around me already acknowledges that I am and my admitting it or not has absolutely no material effect on the world around. It's more for fun and the sake of argument at that point and I've been told I never admit I'm wrong.

    Arguing is fun and logic is subjective. You can argue any point and I think more than that, you can argue any point quite effectively.

    P.S. Yes, on a very real level, I always think I'm right.

    This drives my NT friends and family BATTY.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by GZA View Post
    I usually try to consider if they are right, and then try to take responsibility if they are ("You're right, I'm sorry, I'll work on that") and I'll try to improve. If I disagree, I'll either tell them I disagree, or just walk away and feel bad...
    God -- you are SO NICE!

    I almost feel bad that anyone would take anything I said this seriously! --> I laugh, but I'm serious.

    I would be really careful if I knew you were like this to give you only the most refined kernels of feedback and tell you "you're awesome -- but"

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