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  1. #11
    Senior Member Chris_in_Orbit's Avatar
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    Well, it seems like NFs give chance after chance until they just can't take it anymore...and then the coldness. If someone was showing you again and again that they aren't worth your time, why keep giving them chances until you have to be an ice queen?

    Also, the whole not being who you thought they were thing... Couldn't that be your fault for idealizing them instead of seeing them for who they are?

  2. #12
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    it would depend on the situation it could go either way yeah.

    you could either be blind to their faults in the beginning or they could be deceiving you.

    and blame...doesn't really matter much to me...but yeah...could be the nf's fault for being too idealistic, too accepting and forgiving or it could be the other persons for changing or hiding who they really were...either way the person you loved is an illusion so detachment is easy
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
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  3. #13
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Here's my limb, here's me going out on it:

    in a backwards and odd kind of way, people often care a lot about themselves when they care too much for others.

    Caring about something produces feeling, good and bad, for the carer, yes? So what's driving the carer, really? The decisions they make are based on their response to another person's needs. Their response, yeah?

    So, ultimately, whatever altruistic curtain is clouding your insight, if you can't let go, it's because you can't let go.


    ENFJs are the particularly well-know public demons on this point. I made this decision in OUR best interests, and we will be together forever!!1

    ENFPs, it looks like, have a similar thing. Overbearing smothering, but happily without the overbearing decision-making.


    Phew! You know what, all the usual propaganda about NTs not caring enough, finally we can see and explore the other side--NFs caring too much--and know what it means. The selfish side of it, I mean. I mean, NTs don't care enough so they're selfish; NFs care too much so they're selfish too.

    Bring it.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Chris_in_Orbit's Avatar
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    Nice.

  5. #15
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaula View Post
    Good question.

    I have this ENFP friend who believes she can't fall out of love with anyone she's ever loved. She says she'll always have a peice of her heart for them even when they are long gone and have move on (which obviously hurts her emotionally). She dwells on her exs but fortunately after having many bad ones she has learned that it's not practical to stay in abusive relationships. I don't understand why she just can't move on emotionally. It seems unproductive and self-destructive.
    =( I have noticed this trend before.. I think it's possible to realize that you change, and you're never entirely the same, after a serious relationship with someone.. which is where the whole "I gave them a piece of my heart" entails.

    What bugs me is when it's taken beyond this. I know friends who just seem to linger on the past, even if the past was terrible.. as if they NEED something to cling onto.

    I can say that, while there is a guy I may never get over entirely.. every relationship I've fallen out of, I never looked back aside the one. And that one is for entirely good reasons, nothing abusive or terrible about it.
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  6. #16
    Senior Member Chris_in_Orbit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erinavery View Post
    it would depend on the situation it could go either way yeah.

    you could either be blind to their faults in the beginning or they could be deceiving you.

    and blame...doesn't really matter much to me...but yeah...could be the nf's fault for being too idealistic, too accepting and forgiving or it could be the other persons for changing or hiding who they really were...either way the person you loved is an illusion so detachment is easy
    Guess a person could be hiding who they really are but being "too" anything is probably a fault. A good balance is what a well-rounded individual is all about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Here's my limb, here's me going out on it:

    in a backwards and odd kind of way, people often care a lot about themselves when they care too much for others.

    Caring about something produces feeling, good and bad, for the carer, yes? So what's driving the carer, really? The decisions they make are based on their response to another person's needs. Their response, yeah?

    So, ultimately, whatever altruistic curtain is clouding your insight, if you can't let go, it's because you can't let go.


    ENFJs are the particularly well-know public demons on this point. I made this decision in OUR best interests, and we will be together forever!!1

    ENFPs, it looks like, have a similar thing. Overbearing smothering, but happily without the overbearing decision-making.


    Phew! You know what, all the usual propaganda about NTs not caring enough, finally we can see and explore the other side--NFs caring too much--and know what it means. The selfish side of it, I mean. I mean, NTs don't care enough so they're selfish; NFs care too much so they're selfish too.

    Bring it.
    I like how you think, and I have thought about this also. For one thing, I don't believe in altruism. Not because I'm a pessimist, but the whole idea of doing something completly selfless smells like BS to me. From what you say, NT and NF would be a good pair, moving each other towards a middle ground of caring just enough.

  7. #17
    WTF is this dude saying? A Schnitzel's Avatar
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    Some guys actually listen.

    It sounds like it's just a bad combo or the guy's an ass or both. I don't really know.

  8. #18
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    hey...what's this obsession with blame? i don't know i just don't care...there's compatible and non compatible...i don't think anyone is doing anything "wrong" by being who they are....not to say that striving for growth and balance isn't important but there's no "better" way to approach the relationship...it's not a competition.

    i happen to like that i see the good in people and feel i'd be a lot less happy if all i saw were everyone's faults.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
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  9. #19
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    I think we just value relationship above all else. It's important not to trash something if there is any possibility of it being redeemable, because maintaining relationships is important in and of itself, an idea that overrides the particular relationship we happen to be in at the moment.

  10. #20
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_in_Orbit View Post
    I like how you think, and I have thought about this also. For one thing, I don't believe in altruism. Not because I'm a pessimist, but the whole idea of doing something completly selfless smells like BS to me. From what you say, NT and NF would be a good pair, moving each other towards a middle ground of caring just enough.
    That's the theory, but I'm pretty sure there's another part of it too, namely people moving themselves to a suitable balance. Is there any type that doesn't have both thinking and feeling in the top four functions?

    If the deal with relationships is each partner is forever dragging the other partner back from their dominant+auxiliary ledge, that seems kinda... confining, at least.


    I also think--for the particular problem that originated this thread--J's together have a hard time communicating naturally, especially if their directive functions can't say things the other type can understand. Or if their directive function is pushing for something the other person's directive function doesn't accept. Si informed Fe and Ni informed Fe... you gotta hope there's grounds for understanding.


    And altruism? That's another thread, but I really don't want to rule out the possibility that it can be real. Sure, people are involved in their own decision-making--because if they weren't, they'd make no decisions at all--but, at the risk of being selfish, I believe there can be good decisions about good action.

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