[MBTI General] Help! I need to learn how to use logic!!

[dee]

Don't let my bosses see this thread, but I am afraid that my logic and reasoning skills are very poor. I think thats is why I feel inferior to my collegues especially in the computer hi-tech world.
I just realized that this is my specific problem when attempting to play an easy game of sudoku for the first time....
I need some help here, as I believe that if I work on it, it could get better.
Any suggestions are extremely appreciated!!!!
I need to develop this or my career will be going no where
HELP!!! I need to get smarter!!!
Even crazy hypnosis type ideas are welcome, so please anything....

 

[Virtual ghost]

Can we at least know about what kind of career we are talking about here?


Asking questions like this is usually the first step.

 

[Kalach]

Fall in love with a logician.
Get an assistant
Give up pwning every department at work
Take a course
Read Sophie's World.

Or snap your fingers and wrinkle your nose. It worked on Bewitched.

-Or-

Ethical thinking already includes a shitload of critical thinking, and as ENFJ you do this almost every waking minute of your life. Practice drawing abstract conclusions from the particular cases you see and involve yourelf in every day. Keep a journal. Draw broader and broader conclusions. Discuss your conclusions with someone.

That's logic.

If you want Computer Science, go to Community College.

 

[dee]

Thanks antisociol one and kalach.
How did I not see this coming from 2 intjs!!!!

Ok the truth is if anything I deserve it for admitting to my weakness....
And I can imagine that you are quite happy to know that you guys have no problem with it especially relatively to your enfj friend....
This is what I go through all the time here at work...

Ethical thinking already includes a shitload of critical thinking, and as ENFJ you do this almost every waking minute of your life. Practice drawing abstract conclusions from the particular cases you see and involve yourelf in every day. Keep a journal. Draw broader and broader conclusions. Discuss your conclusions with someone.

I think a lot, that is not my problem, and I am actually very ethical , I am good at solving problems on the level of organizing priorities and finding real solutions, but when it comes to logic problems, I think which have to do maybe with spatial reasoning,? I don't know where to start.. I want to develop this and the truth is it doesn't really matter if I do stay in the hi-tech computer feild or not, I don't want to have this major weakness in my intellect as it makes me feel very bad about myself, and my level of intellect, which of course has a direct effect on my self esteem....

I know I have strengths in other areas of intellect, but I want to be well rounded and at least be average in all the different areas...

I am still debating about what career, but I would like to do project management and I would need to know computers to be able to know what the heck I'm managing
(That I would do mainly for the managing aspect, and in the hi-tech feild for the money )

the truth is my dream job or career would be a project director for humanitarian type issues, something that involves 'real time' as I enjoy meeting the challenge of doing the impossible. Such as disaster relief at the time of crisis: war, natural disaster, etc.
and I anyways feel so drawn to helping as many people as possible at the time of a crisis, so to help entire regions, or a city of people etc., would be a dream ....

Still waiting for answers.
come on, help an enfj out

Thanks again, Dee

 

[Laurie]

Well I would suggest buying logic problem books and doing them. It might sound funny to get logic suggestions from an ENFP but I had logic training (puzzles) as a kid at school and have an engineering degree. I guess it's not my weakness.

Practice really helps a lot. Some books are better than others, some have very ambiguous puzzles that make me wonder how the person even got to the point of making a book.

There are puzzle magazines you can buy at the store you can try. They are usually word puzzles but they do have some logic puzzles in them.

There are logic books about "thinking logically" or "winning arguments" but I haven't read any of them. I will try to find some of the books I actually think are good and post them.

I hope this helps a little.

 

[Helios]

Don't let my bosses see this thread, but I am afraid that my logic and reasoning skills are very poor. I think thats is why I feel inferior to my collegues especially in the computer hi-tech world.
I just realized that this is my specific problem when attempting to play an easy game of sudoku for the first time....
I need some help here, as I believe that if I work on it, it could get better.
Any suggestions are extremely appreciated!!!!
I need to develop this or my career will be going no where
HELP!!! I need to get smarter!!!
Even crazy hypnosis type ideas are welcome, so please anything....

I recommend "With Good Reason: An Introduction to Informal Fallacies" by S. Morris Engel.

 

[Udog]

If you are taking college classes, look into Discrete Mathematics and boolean algebra. Both deal with logic using concrete and explicit rules.

Remember that logic is a skill. Just because you were not born with it doesn't mean you can't learn about it and develop it. (As an INFP I'm painfully aware of not being a logical creature by default.) I suggest picking up some books on the topic, and then enlisting friends to help you when it comes to understanding, integrating, and applying it.

If you are interesting in doing well with I.Q. test type questions, Elaur's advice is pretty good. The more of those types of problems you do, the better you will become at it.

 

[Kalach]

Dee, seriously, there's a difference between truth hunting and feeling hunting, and it shows up in reading: strict truth hunting draws the concepts out of the words, and strict feeling hunting draws the tone out of the writer. You're a tone reader par excellence, and a deep ethical thinker/manager. And logic, critical reasoning, is not much more than exactly what you do every day, but written out in a step-by-step form to an abstract, generalisable conclusion.

In short, logic is included in what you do every day. If you truly want to see the logic (and torture yourself), then think about your day, take the human faces out of it, and write down what's left, the abstract ethical principles you use every day. Then discuss them. Prove them. Abstract away from the particular people and represent the principles behind it all. You'll be engaging in logical discourse.

But why waste your time?

Why not jump hard onto managing people instead of machines. Like my Pappy always used to say: "Don't know better than the expert, get to know the expert better."

Why not, in fact, investigate jobs with humanitarian agencies?



Oh God, I just realised, DON'T take the people's faces out of your discussion. Include them. In detail. Build up supporting evidence for your final conclusions. Then generalise. Use other examples... That's logical discussion.

Practice will make perfect. The style of talking will carry over into other areas.

Soon you will be an INTP.

 

[dee]

Thanks everyone!! really!!
I will be looking into everything that has been suggested, and have taken all of your advice to heart!
I am feeling much better already thanks to all you're advice!

Cheers, Dee

 

[Kalach]

For example:

Mary has been living with Bob for four years and is very comfortable, even though she worries she doesn't really love him. What's more, recently she has started working with George. She has discovered that she is very attracted to him. In fact, last week at a social function after work she found herself in deep discussion with George about everything and anything. They were still talking after everyone else had left. However, she is not completely sure what that means.

Bob is going away on an assignment for his work and will be gone for two months. Before she met George, Mary was looking forward to Bob's assignment because it would give her a chance to be alone and sort out some issues for herself.

Now Mary thinks she might like to have a date George while Bob is away.

Should she tell Bob before he goes on assignment? Why? Why not?

 

[The Third Rider]

I suffer from the same condition and I notice that I lose all logic when I get into arguments/discussions. I want to work on this area as well, I am just not sure where I lose my logic sometimes, and than I realise that I am talking nonsense and am getting called out on it. I too have been trying to do the whole IT support myself but find it somewhat hard. I have tried to teach myself and have tried reading books but unfortunately they bore me way too easily and my mind wonders really fast. I hate it, I want to learn it and retain the information but I have a hard time focusing, there must be a way for me to better focus better.

 

[Kalach]

Basically, for the purposes of critical reasoning, yes, everyone can hear what you say, and yes, everyone has a reaction and an opinion, and no, this really shouldn't be what determines the content of your speech. If it does, the opportunity to reason critically is lost even as the opportunity to enjoy everyone's company is promoted.

Unless you're talking with INTPs who like you.

Practice. Get a safe environment in which to debate with a real person. Have a dinner party with people you actually like and feel comfortable with.

I suggest double sided name tags. One side says "X is debating now" and the other side says "X is schmoozing now"

No, really. I mean it. Actually genuine tags for when and where you are intending to reason critically. You'll get to know the sound of your own voice and the style you use.

 

[dee]

Why not, in fact, investigate jobs with humanitarian agencies?

Trust me like I said, I would love too, I've read job descriptions before, for these type positions, and they are like:requirements- passionate about this or that, and I'm like yes thats me!!!, But, the main reason I don't is that they don't pay very well to put it lightly, and as the sole provider of the family at the moment I need money and I need it fast! otherwise soon I am going to be the one needing help from some organization

I suffer from the same condition and I notice that I lose all logic when I get into arguments/discussions. I want to work on this area as well, I am just not sure where I lose my logic sometimes, and than I realise that I am talking nonsense and am getting called out on it. I too have been trying to do the whole IT support myself but find it somewhat hard. I have tried to teach myself and have tried reading books but unfortunately they bore me way too easily and my mind wonders really fast. I hate it, I want to learn it and retain the information but I have a hard time focusing, there must be a way for me to better focus better.

Amazing, another thing that we have in common...
What is this?
How do you deal with it? Now my question to you is, as a systems analyst don't you need a lot of this skill and don't you need to focus a lot???

What should we do about this?

 

[PeaceBaby]

doh,

how to become more logical
by peacebaby

1.) don't beat yourself up
2.) do the crossword puzzle weekly (daily, no - gah that's too much)
3.) play tic-tac-toe as fast as you can (preferably with an NT)
4.) play battleship
5.) bake cookies and follow the recipe exactly
6.) see if your local high school has a debating team and watch the matches. observe how others "score points"
7.) take a simple topic and try to argue (on paper first) convincingly for / against. exclude all feeling-based judgements at the end
8.) meditate in order to help slow your thoughts; you'll get better at controlling this, especially in heated moments, and logic will flow better in those moments
9.) solve a jigsaw puzzle, a giant one, or one that's two sided
10.) remember we all have strengths and all need to skill-build

I'm serious.

I am an NF working in computers as well. Remember you bring something special to the table - the ability to see how the software can benefit others, see how humans interact with the software, empathize with customer issues etc. I agree it can be challenging, and I need to take frequent breaks to rejuvenate my brain, but there is a space for your natural talents in IT.

 

[dee]

am an NF working in computers as well. Remember you bring something special to the table - the ability to see how the software can benefit others, see how humans interact with the software, empathize with customer issues etc. I agree it can be challenging, and I need to take frequent breaks to rejuvenate my brain, but there is a space for your natural talents in IT.

Thank you for that! Lol that is so true about me at work, I'm always like well is it clear to the user... etc. always thinking about that aspect, or will the client be happy with the product etc. That is just so funny to me that you mention it like that, cause I never really saw it as a positive thing....in IT I mean...
You have no idea how much you have encouraged me with ^

 

[The Third Rider]

Basically, for the purposes of critical reasoning, yes, everyone can hear what you say, and yes, everyone has a reaction and an opinion, and no, this really shouldn't be what determines the content of your speech.

I understand what you said at the beginning of the sentence but I am a little puzzeled by the boalded part. Do you mean to focus on the actual subject of the discussion instead how I see the whole situation over all? Because I do focus on the subject, its just that I lose my train of thought for some reason.

If it does, the opportunity to reason critically is lost even as the opportunity to enjoy everyone's company is promoted.

Perhaps after you expand on my previous question I will understand this one as well.

Unless you're talking with INTPs who like you.

Its not specific to anyone just general issues that I notice about myself.

Practice. Get a safe environment in which to debate with a real person. Have a dinner party with people you actually like and feel comfortable with.

I suggest double sided name tags. One side says "X is debating now" and the other side says "X is schmoozing now"

No, really. I mean it. Actually genuine tags for when and where you are intending to reason critically. You'll get to know the sound of your own voice and the style you use.

Hmmmm....interesting, I am not sure if any of my friend would be up for somthing like this but I guess I can find other ways.

Amazing, another thing that we have in common...

Yeah its quite funny, but unless you have 2 eyes a mouth two arms and a nose just like me I will say that its pure coincidence.

What is this?
How do you deal with it? Now my question to you is, as a systems analyst don't you need a lot of this skill and don't you need to focus a lot???

Well I do need the skills and also I could make more money if I get more certificates and go back to college and work on this. The issue is that Impersonal information bores me and I lose focus fast, heck sometimes I have to read the same paragraph 3 times so that I can pickup the information. This is something that I REALLY hate about me. I want to be able to focus better.

What should we do about this?

I been thinking of doing a different career, but 1) Money is thight 2) Forget loooking for another job with this economy 3) I have NO clue what other career I would like to do that pays well.

 

[Kalach]

Basically, for the purposes of critical reasoning, yes, everyone can hear what you say, and yes, everyone has a reaction and an opinion, and no, this really shouldn't be what determines the content of your speech.

I understand what you said at the beginning of the sentence but I am a little puzzeled by the boalded part. Do you mean to focus on the actual subject of the discussion instead how I see the whole situation over all? Because I do focus on the subject, its just that I lose my train of thought for some reason.

It's an assumption. Namely that ENFJs will notice much more about the immediate situation and the interpersonal interactions, perhaps paying less attention to the subject of the interpersonal interactions.

Nerd 1: "Foucault says sex is the new leprosy!"
Nerd 2: "Foucault!? That retard. He was Nietzsche's punk!"
Nerd 1: "MY GOD! HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT?!"
Nerd 2: "YOUR God? What are you, religious?"

ENFJ (a Christian who has an opinion on Foucault's criticism of sex as power) says...

Actually, I don't know. I'm going way out on a limb here and suggesting that people very much concerned with immediate interpersonal interactions as they relate to long term goals of harmony and productivity may temper what they choose to say, preferring the goal of harmony over the goal of critical investigation. Whatever personal opinion they have may get lost in the mix as they put their energy into smoothing over a crisis.

Plus, even without a crisis, long term political goals might factor just as large in the mind of the speaker as concern for truth, making "logic" speaking a double energy burden that other people don't see. Issues like, "how will he feel about this formulation?" become part of the calculation of what to say next.

Dunno. What do you think?

 

[dee]

Yeah its quite funny, but unless you have 2 eyes a mouth two arms and a nose just like me I will say that its pure coincidence.

LOL,

Actually, I don't know. I'm going way out on a limb here and suggesting that people very much concerned with immediate interpersonal interactions as they relate to long term goals of harmony and productivity may temper what they choose to say, preferring the goal of harmony over the goal of critical investigation. Whatever personal opinion they have may get lost in the mix as they put their energy into smoothing over a crisis.

Plus, even without a crisis, long term political goals might factor just as large in the mind of the speaker as concern for truth, making "logic" speaking a double energy burden that other people don't see. Issues like, "how will he feel about this formulation?" become part of the calculation of what to say next.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[ptgatsby]

Even crazy hypnosis type ideas are welcome, so please anything....

I think you may be missing the point of logic

How did I not see this coming from 2 intjs!!!!

A lack of logic? All jokes aside, logic isn't as cut and dry as you think. A lot of the 'rationals' are about rationalisation of what they believe deep down. That is, they use logic as a framework around their belief, while most logic sure would the other way around.

IOW, they spend every day with this framework around them. It is their weapon of choice. But it's mostly subconcious. You can easily gain as much ability as them by studying it. Yes, studying.

Practice. Get a safe environment in which to debate with a real person. Have a dinner party with people you actually like and feel comfortable with.

This is a good idea, but mostly focuses on how to present logic, not how to form it. So it depends on if you want critical reasoning skills, or if you want to simply use it in public. The plowshare or the sword.

7.) take a simple topic and try to argue (on paper first) convincingly for / against. exclude all feeling-based judgements at the end
8.) meditate in order to help slow your thoughts; you'll get better at controlling this, especially in heated moments, and logic will flow better in those moments

These are good practises, actually. I actually suggest doing basic math as well. The logical operators are mathematic and while you won't actually gain the logic skills just by doing math, it helps understand how it works.


---

Anyway, I suggest taking critical thinking, or just getting a textbook. There is one online at Chapter Index (quick google search). Most include both fuzzy and formal argument forms (chapters 8-13 in the above link). It's not going to be super fun if you don't already enjoy it, but it's the most direct way of learning it.

And chances are you'll be better at it than the "common" users of logic that only prefer it, never trained it.

 

[metamorphysics]

What almost everyone else has suggested may help but probably wont work.

The key here is to change the way by which you decide something is true, thus effectively changing your active mentality.

1) Questions. Question everything than question your questions (and answers) and repeat this process as much as possible.

2) Feelings do not express truth only what you want to be true. So any answers, sometimes even questions, that you "feel" discard as false untill proven otherwise.

3) Your the only person that exists... let all outside influence and judgment become irrelevant to your answers. If someone calls you "slow" or says something that gets on your nerves than ignore it, if the smartest person(or the person you “love”) you know says this is the truth than ignore it... decide what is true yourself.

Assuming you believe in God or even if you dont believe in God than start there...

"how do i know god exists?" "b/c i feel God" -- and now you contradicted the second point... so that cant be it. "b/c Others have told me god exists" -- contradicted the 3rd point... so that cant be it. "ok, i dont know if god exists... how do i determine whether or not he exists?", "what is existence?"... And so on. This process may leave you with more questions than answers, which is fine(its part of the absolute understanding of your own existence).

Just always be aware of those 3 points when you decide what is true. Keep in mind this process may take hours, days, weeks, sometimes even months or years... dont get discouraged if it doesnt come to you instantaneously because it wont. When i talk to people about what i "know", i am usually talking about things that i thought about A LOT for a long long time...

Also Work and school do not care if your the smartest person on earth and they dont care if you just determined the meaning of life after a month of deep contemplation... keep this in mind b/c in some cases you simply need to act w/o knowing the truth, think when you have the time to think and act when you need to act.