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  1. #21
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    A point of reference: anyone who uses language is automatically being "logical."

    It's really just a matter of whether the logic is covert or overt.

    See, to speak and be understood, everyone makes connections between meaningful utterances: this sentence follows that, this response suits that statement, my tone expresses this meaning, and so on.

    The "logic" is overt if you actually say your meaning, completely and directly. As in, "We're here today to discuss existentialism, so let's groove like Socrates with a joint to share." The logic is covert if you have a purpose to your utterances other than the openly stated purpose for meeting and speaking. As in, "I think Obama is great for the future of our country," he says, pocketing his Republican Party membership badge and eyeing the sweet bi-racial chick sitting in the back row.

    Everyone uses logic. It's just, a lot of times, they don't lay the whole of their purpose out in the open for everyone to pick over, and therefore they tend not to codify their logic, nor to test it directly, nor to even make it directly available to themselves.

    People, I say, and Freaks. The difference is in the toe-nail polish.


    But anyway, Critical Thinking, that's what it's called. They even call it that in business. There are courses out there, wholly focused on the business utility of thinkin' critical.

    "Being more logical" is practiced more or less just by spelling out in suitable detail why you did something, or should do something, and how it relates to other things. If you do it often enough, the style of talking will transfer to other subjects.

    It's hard. But, as they say in the movies, if you do it with a friend you trust, then it's rewarding.

    Go Team!


    Oh, and by the way, for learning and teaching logical thinking an ENFP teacher I know swears up and down that:

    Edward de Bono is a god
    and his CoRT techniques genuinely work.

  2. #22
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    think you may be missing the point of logic
    Lol!

    3) Your the only person that exists... let all outside influence and judgment become irrelevant to your answers. If someone calls you "slow" or says something that gets on your nerves than ignore it, if the smartest person(or the person you “love”) you know says this is the truth than ignore it... decide what is true yourself.
    Wow, Idon't even know if I am capable of doing that like with my emotional makeup...
    I mean I could try and sure to some extent we are all seperate but no one else exists....*whistle* I just seriously don't know if I can do that.

    Assuming you believe in God or even if you dont believe in God than start there...

    "how do i know god exists?" "b/c i feel God" -- and now you contradicted the second point... so that cant be it. "b/c Others have told me god exists" -- contradicted the 3rd point... so that cant be it. "ok, i dont know if god exists... how do i determine whether or not he exists?", "what is existence?"... And so on. This process may leave you with more questions than answers, which is fine(its part of the absolute understanding of your own existence).
    What on earth does contemplating the existence of God have to do with logic?
    I mean if you do believe in God it is beyond logic as it cannot be scientifically proven.
    Faith is the total opposite of reasoning or logic.
    Faith begins where reasoning ends...

    Also Work and school do not care if your the smartest person on earth
    You would be surprised, I have seen job listings like, looking for anyone with 95% score and up in any complex major can apply...etc etc,

    They might as well have put in the listing: for geniuses only!

  3. #23
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by dee View Post
    Faith is the total opposite of reasoning or logic.
    No actually it isn't. Logic and reason can help one better understand the nature of God and even of faith. Ultimately of course, faith is indeed something beyond logic, but not necessarily opposite of it.

    As for overall situation, I would suggest you seek less to develop logic per se and instead seek to develop your common sense. That's far more valuable than pure logic.

  4. #24
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    As for overall situation, I would suggest you seek less to develop logic per se and instead seek to develop your common sense. That's far more valuable than pure logic.
    Thanks a lot, I will take reference of that.
    Nice, real nice...

  5. #25
    Member metamorphysics's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    A point of reference: anyone who uses language is automatically being "logical."

    It's really just a matter of whether the logic is covert or overt.

    See, to speak and be understood, everyone makes connections between meaningful utterances: this sentence follows that, this response suits that statement, my tone expresses this meaning, and so on.

    The "logic" is overt if you actually say your meaning, completely and directly. As in, "We're here today to discuss existentialism, so let's groove like Socrates with a joint to share." The logic is covert if you have a purpose to your utterances other than the openly stated purpose for meeting and speaking. As in, "I think Obama is great for the future of our country," he says, pocketing his Republican Party membership badge and eyeing the sweet bi-racial chick sitting in the back row.

    Everyone uses logic. It's just, a lot of times, they don't lay the whole of their purpose out in the open for everyone to pick over, and therefore they tend not to codify their logic, nor to test it directly, nor to even make it directly available to themselves.

    People, I say, and Freaks. The difference is in the toe-nail polish.


    But anyway, Critical Thinking, that's what it's called. They even call it that in business. There are courses out there, wholly focused on the business utility of thinkin' critical.

    "Being more logical" is practiced more or less just by spelling out in suitable detail why you did something, or should do something, and how it relates to other things. If you do it often enough, the style of talking will transfer to other subjects.

    It's hard. But, as they say in the movies, if you do it with a friend you trust, then it's rewarding.

    Go Team!
    So if we are trying to completely evade the point of this thread and confuse the OP and others as much as possible, i would say your on the right track.

    1) most of what you said probably wont help the OP to become more "logical".
    2) your idea of "being more logical", although not actually wrong, is in the context of the existence of your thought/mind process and probably wont help others and their persuit to become more "logical" seeing as when they incorprate your suggestion it is open to much bias and misinterpretation of acheiving the desired goal of "truth"(although not necassarily confined to these paremeters).

  6. #26
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by metamorphysics View Post
    So if we are trying to completely evade the point of this thread and confuse the OP and others as much as possible, i would say your on the right track.
    I believe there is a thread somewhere about when good INTJs turn ENTP.

    1) most of what you said probably wont help the OP to become more "logical".
    2) your idea of "being more logical", although not actually wrong, is in the context of the existence of your thought/mind process and probably wont help others and their persuit to become more "logical" seeing as when they incorprate your suggestion it is open to much bias and misinterpretation of acheiving the desired goal of "truth"(although not necassarily confined to these paremeters).
    Yass, you are right. Bias and misinterpretation will be rife. Favouring hoped for outcomes will continue as before. But you see, it's a ploy...

    ENFJs won't do much of anything theoretical if it doesn't involve another person. I mentioned several times that the practice of becoming logical happens in the company of other people, with whom one interlocutes.

    You see, I plot the demise of the ENFJ empire. Once they get the habit of actually spelling out their labyrinthine scheming inner workings, their days are numbered.

    Indeed to further promote this goal of logicifying the impenetrable:

    Headline:

    "Anonymous NF says:
    Edward de Bono is a god
    CoRT techniques genuinely work."

  7. #27
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by dee View Post
    Thanks a lot, I will take reference of that.
    Nice, real nice...
    So sorry to have wasted your time. :rolli:

  8. #28
    Member metamorphysics's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dee View Post
    Wow, Idon't even know if I am capable of doing that like with my emotional makeup...
    I mean I could try and sure to some extent we are all seperate but no one else exists....*whistle* I just seriously don't know if I can do that.
    You have the potential to do that; you can do it, the only question is if you have the will to do it. If you really want to become more logical than getting past your emotions is a must.

    Quote Originally Posted by dee View Post
    What on earth does contemplating the existence of God have to do with logic?
    thats a good question... answer it yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by dee View Post
    I mean if you do believe in God it is beyond logic as it cannot be scientifically proven.
    Faith is the total opposite of reasoning or logic.
    Faith begins where reasoning ends...
    How do you know what you just said is true? Did you question your answers or blindly conclude them based on what you feel and or others have told you?

    Quote Originally Posted by dee View Post
    You would be surprised, I have seen job listings like, looking for anyone with 95% score and up in any complex major can apply...etc etc,

    They might as well have put in the listing: for geniuses only!
    You are right, there are exceptions... the point was more for adaptation of thought and understanding that soceity wont necassarily treat you better for being more thoguhtfull/logical than someone else.

  9. #29
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    One thing to remember, once you learn to "be logical" is that no one is logical. We all take everything in through a fallible body and mind.

    Also, responding that way to peguy wasn't very logical. You should try to understand what he is saying and apply it to the situation, not just throw something out because you think you can.

    In fact, I think that is part of what makes someone look logical. Being willing to try to see something from many viewpoints and basing your argument off all possible points.

  10. #30
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elaur View Post
    Also, responding that way to peguy wasn't very logical.
    The rep points she gave me were even less logical.

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