User Tag List

First 1234 Last

Results 11 to 20 of 44

  1. #11
    Senior Member The Third Rider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    MBTI
    ENFj
    Posts
    767

    Default

    I suffer from the same condition and I notice that I lose all logic when I get into arguments/discussions. I want to work on this area as well, I am just not sure where I lose my logic sometimes, and than I realise that I am talking nonsense and am getting called out on it. I too have been trying to do the whole IT support myself but find it somewhat hard. I have tried to teach myself and have tried reading books but unfortunately they bore me way too easily and my mind wonders really fast. I hate it, I want to learn it and retain the information but I have a hard time focusing, there must be a way for me to better focus better.
    ENFJ 3W4

    If you read this I am sorry to say that you just lost 5 seconds of your life that you wont be getting back.*

    *Actual time may vary.

  2. #12
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    4,318

    Default

    Basically, for the purposes of critical reasoning, yes, everyone can hear what you say, and yes, everyone has a reaction and an opinion, and no, this really shouldn't be what determines the content of your speech. If it does, the opportunity to reason critically is lost even as the opportunity to enjoy everyone's company is promoted.

    Unless you're talking with INTPs who like you.

    Practice. Get a safe environment in which to debate with a real person. Have a dinner party with people you actually like and feel comfortable with.

    I suggest double sided name tags. One side says "X is debating now" and the other side says "X is schmoozing now"

    No, really. I mean it. Actually genuine tags for when and where you are intending to reason critically. You'll get to know the sound of your own voice and the style you use.

  3. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    Enfj
    Enneagram
    2+1
    Socionics
    ?
    Posts
    136

    Default

    Why not, in fact, investigate jobs with humanitarian agencies?
    Trust me like I said, I would love too, I've read job descriptions before, for these type positions, and they are like:requirements- passionate about this or that, and I'm like yes thats me!!!, But, the main reason I don't is that they don't pay very well to put it lightly, and as the sole provider of the family at the moment I need money and I need it fast! otherwise soon I am going to be the one needing help from some organization

    I suffer from the same condition and I notice that I lose all logic when I get into arguments/discussions. I want to work on this area as well, I am just not sure where I lose my logic sometimes, and than I realise that I am talking nonsense and am getting called out on it. I too have been trying to do the whole IT support myself but find it somewhat hard. I have tried to teach myself and have tried reading books but unfortunately they bore me way too easily and my mind wonders really fast. I hate it, I want to learn it and retain the information but I have a hard time focusing, there must be a way for me to better focus better.
    Amazing, another thing that we have in common...
    What is this?
    How do you deal with it? Now my question to you is, as a systems analyst don't you need a lot of this skill and don't you need to focus a lot???

    What should we do about this?

  4. #14
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    937 so/sx
    Posts
    6,226

    Default

    doh,

    how to become more logical
    by peacebaby

    1.) don't beat yourself up
    2.) do the crossword puzzle weekly (daily, no - gah that's too much)
    3.) play tic-tac-toe as fast as you can (preferably with an NT)
    4.) play battleship
    5.) bake cookies and follow the recipe exactly
    6.) see if your local high school has a debating team and watch the matches. observe how others "score points"
    7.) take a simple topic and try to argue (on paper first) convincingly for / against. exclude all feeling-based judgements at the end
    8.) meditate in order to help slow your thoughts; you'll get better at controlling this, especially in heated moments, and logic will flow better in those moments
    9.) solve a jigsaw puzzle, a giant one, or one that's two sided
    10.) remember we all have strengths and all need to skill-build

    I'm serious.

    I am an NF working in computers as well. Remember you bring something special to the table - the ability to see how the software can benefit others, see how humans interact with the software, empathize with customer issues etc. I agree it can be challenging, and I need to take frequent breaks to rejuvenate my brain, but there is a space for your natural talents in IT.

  5. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    Enfj
    Enneagram
    2+1
    Socionics
    ?
    Posts
    136

    Default

    am an NF working in computers as well. Remember you bring something special to the table - the ability to see how the software can benefit others, see how humans interact with the software, empathize with customer issues etc. I agree it can be challenging, and I need to take frequent breaks to rejuvenate my brain, but there is a space for your natural talents in IT.
    Thank you for that! Lol that is so true about me at work, I'm always like well is it clear to the user... etc. always thinking about that aspect, or will the client be happy with the product etc. That is just so funny to me that you mention it like that, cause I never really saw it as a positive thing....in IT I mean...
    You have no idea how much you have encouraged me with ^

  6. #16
    Senior Member The Third Rider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    MBTI
    ENFj
    Posts
    767

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Basically, for the purposes of critical reasoning, yes, everyone can hear what you say, and yes, everyone has a reaction and an opinion, and no, this really shouldn't be what determines the content of your speech.
    I understand what you said at the beginning of the sentence but I am a little puzzeled by the boalded part. Do you mean to focus on the actual subject of the discussion instead how I see the whole situation over all? Because I do focus on the subject, its just that I lose my train of thought for some reason.

    If it does, the opportunity to reason critically is lost even as the opportunity to enjoy everyone's company is promoted.
    Perhaps after you expand on my previous question I will understand this one as well.

    Unless you're talking with INTPs who like you.
    Its not specific to anyone just general issues that I notice about myself.

    Practice. Get a safe environment in which to debate with a real person. Have a dinner party with people you actually like and feel comfortable with.

    I suggest double sided name tags. One side says "X is debating now" and the other side says "X is schmoozing now"

    No, really. I mean it. Actually genuine tags for when and where you are intending to reason critically. You'll get to know the sound of your own voice and the style you use.
    Hmmmm....interesting, I am not sure if any of my friend would be up for somthing like this but I guess I can find other ways.


    Quote Originally Posted by dee View Post
    Amazing, another thing that we have in common...
    Yeah its quite funny, but unless you have 2 eyes a mouth two arms and a nose just like me I will say that its pure coincidence.

    What is this?
    How do you deal with it? Now my question to you is, as a systems analyst don't you need a lot of this skill and don't you need to focus a lot???
    Well I do need the skills and also I could make more money if I get more certificates and go back to college and work on this. The issue is that Impersonal information bores me and I lose focus fast, heck sometimes I have to read the same paragraph 3 times so that I can pickup the information. This is something that I REALLY hate about me. I want to be able to focus better.

    What should we do about this?
    I been thinking of doing a different career, but 1) Money is thight 2) Forget loooking for another job with this economy 3) I have NO clue what other career I would like to do that pays well.
    ENFJ 3W4

    If you read this I am sorry to say that you just lost 5 seconds of your life that you wont be getting back.*

    *Actual time may vary.

  7. #17
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    4,318

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Third Rider View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Basically, for the purposes of critical reasoning, yes, everyone can hear what you say, and yes, everyone has a reaction and an opinion, and no, this really shouldn't be what determines the content of your speech.
    I understand what you said at the beginning of the sentence but I am a little puzzeled by the boalded part. Do you mean to focus on the actual subject of the discussion instead how I see the whole situation over all? Because I do focus on the subject, its just that I lose my train of thought for some reason.
    It's an assumption. Namely that ENFJs will notice much more about the immediate situation and the interpersonal interactions, perhaps paying less attention to the subject of the interpersonal interactions.

    Nerd 1: "Foucault says sex is the new leprosy!"
    Nerd 2: "Foucault!? That retard. He was Nietzsche's punk!"
    Nerd 1: "MY GOD! HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT?!"
    Nerd 2: "YOUR God? What are you, religious?"

    ENFJ (a Christian who has an opinion on Foucault's criticism of sex as power) says...

    Actually, I don't know. I'm going way out on a limb here and suggesting that people very much concerned with immediate interpersonal interactions as they relate to long term goals of harmony and productivity may temper what they choose to say, preferring the goal of harmony over the goal of critical investigation. Whatever personal opinion they have may get lost in the mix as they put their energy into smoothing over a crisis.

    Plus, even without a crisis, long term political goals might factor just as large in the mind of the speaker as concern for truth, making "logic" speaking a double energy burden that other people don't see. Issues like, "how will he feel about this formulation?" become part of the calculation of what to say next.

    Dunno. What do you think?

  8. #18
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    Enfj
    Enneagram
    2+1
    Socionics
    ?
    Posts
    136

    Default

    Yeah its quite funny, but unless you have 2 eyes a mouth two arms and a nose just like me I will say that its pure coincidence.
    LOL,

    Actually, I don't know. I'm going way out on a limb here and suggesting that people very much concerned with immediate interpersonal interactions as they relate to long term goals of harmony and productivity may temper what they choose to say, preferring the goal of harmony over the goal of critical investigation. Whatever personal opinion they have may get lost in the mix as they put their energy into smoothing over a crisis.

    Plus, even without a crisis, long term political goals might factor just as large in the mind of the speaker as concern for truth, making "logic" speaking a double energy burden that other people don't see. Issues like, "how will he feel about this formulation?" become part of the calculation of what to say next.
    I have no idea what you are talking about.

  9. #19
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Posts
    4,474

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dee View Post
    Even crazy hypnosis type ideas are welcome, so please anything....
    I think you may be missing the point of logic

    Quote Originally Posted by dee View Post
    How did I not see this coming from 2 intjs!!!!
    A lack of logic? All jokes aside, logic isn't as cut and dry as you think. A lot of the 'rationals' are about rationalisation of what they believe deep down. That is, they use logic as a framework around their belief, while most logic sure would the other way around.

    IOW, they spend every day with this framework around them. It is their weapon of choice. But it's mostly subconcious. You can easily gain as much ability as them by studying it. Yes, studying.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Practice. Get a safe environment in which to debate with a real person. Have a dinner party with people you actually like and feel comfortable with.
    This is a good idea, but mostly focuses on how to present logic, not how to form it. So it depends on if you want critical reasoning skills, or if you want to simply use it in public. The plowshare or the sword.


    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    7.) take a simple topic and try to argue (on paper first) convincingly for / against. exclude all feeling-based judgements at the end
    8.) meditate in order to help slow your thoughts; you'll get better at controlling this, especially in heated moments, and logic will flow better in those moments
    These are good practises, actually. I actually suggest doing basic math as well. The logical operators are mathematic and while you won't actually gain the logic skills just by doing math, it helps understand how it works.


    ---

    Anyway, I suggest taking critical thinking, or just getting a textbook. There is one online at Chapter Index (quick google search). Most include both fuzzy and formal argument forms (chapters 8-13 in the above link). It's not going to be super fun if you don't already enjoy it, but it's the most direct way of learning it.

    And chances are you'll be better at it than the "common" users of logic that only prefer it, never trained it.

  10. #20
    Member metamorphysics's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    32

    Default

    What almost everyone else has suggested may help but probably wont work.

    The key here is to change the way by which you decide something is true, thus effectively changing your active mentality.

    1) Questions. Question everything than question your questions (and answers) and repeat this process as much as possible.

    2) Feelings do not express truth only what you want to be true. So any answers, sometimes even questions, that you "feel" discard as false untill proven otherwise.

    3) Your the only person that exists... let all outside influence and judgment become irrelevant to your answers. If someone calls you "slow" or says something that gets on your nerves than ignore it, if the smartest person(or the person you “love”) you know says this is the truth than ignore it... decide what is true yourself.

    Assuming you believe in God or even if you dont believe in God than start there...

    "how do i know god exists?" "b/c i feel God" -- and now you contradicted the second point... so that cant be it. "b/c Others have told me god exists" -- contradicted the 3rd point... so that cant be it. "ok, i dont know if god exists... how do i determine whether or not he exists?", "what is existence?"... And so on. This process may leave you with more questions than answers, which is fine(its part of the absolute understanding of your own existence).

    Just always be aware of those 3 points when you decide what is true. Keep in mind this process may take hours, days, weeks, sometimes even months or years... dont get discouraged if it doesnt come to you instantaneously because it wont. When i talk to people about what i "know", i am usually talking about things that i thought about A LOT for a long long time...

    Also Work and school do not care if your the smartest person on earth and they dont care if you just determined the meaning of life after a month of deep contemplation... keep this in mind b/c in some cases you simply need to act w/o knowing the truth, think when you have the time to think and act when you need to act.

Similar Threads

  1. [ENTP] Do ENTP's feel the need to use objective facts when arguing?
    By The Great One in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 12-11-2012, 04:59 PM
  2. I need help. I don't know how to get it.
    By Magic Poriferan in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 01-17-2011, 02:24 AM
  3. learning to use functions
    By UnitOfPopulation in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 09-29-2007, 04:22 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO