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[NF] NFs and impersonal approach

Virtual ghost

Complex paradigm
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Jun 6, 2008
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In real life and on this forum many NFs said that dispassionate approach scares them a lot below the surface.
They say it is scary because if there is no their emotional intensity everything would be quite boring and nothing would have any real point or beauty. So life would be quite horrble existance if it were like this.
Only thing what I am trying to do is to understand this need to be amused so often (I don't how else to name this)
I am sure that there will be some generalization in this thread but I don't not how to create it without it. Also I am sure that this is not only a F/T thing.


Often it happened that an F thinks that something, an object I like and make sure to stay close to that or it can be a idea also. In short, I am talking about something that people see as sacred to me.
But then problem appears and I rollover those things or throw them away or reject the idea since it is no longer.......... (correct or useful)


But if an F is watching this, it gets horrfied by this approach. I would dare to say that at some moments it looks like that their heart is broken just by watching ot listening to this.


I can argue with an NF for some time and I don't get exiced over it. While NF need sometime to calm down. Also it looks like that they are quite frustrated because of mine impersonal approach.
Is it so hard to understand that I am attacking your position over something not you as a person? Or those two are same for NFs?


If someone wants to explain they are free to try. I am more interested in explanation of NFs (and SFs) then other opinions since I know theory.
I want practical insight why NFs don't like this.
 

nolla

Senor Membrane
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May 22, 2008
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3,166
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INFP
I don't have much time, but here's a couple of points...

Only thing what I am trying to do is to understand this need to be amused so often (I don't how else to name this)

I think it is need for connection, actually. We relate with people through feelings. If a person doesn't seem to have feeling, how to relate?

I can argue with an NF for some time and I don't get exiced over it. While NF need sometime to calm down.

Yeah, you are right. It is sometimes an effort to keep cool. I guess that is because there is some emotional connection to the concepts that are perceived true and important. I might turn the question back at you: Do you apply your concepts into your life? Are they still seen as impersonal? If you live your life according to an idea, is it easy for you to argue against that idea? For me the only ideas I will fight for and get upset about are the ones that define me. So, if you convinced me otherwise it would be the same as taking away my life style.
 

Lady_X

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for me personally...i just don't tend to argue unless i'm personally attached to my belief and often...i feel it's my right to have it and not yours to attempt to dissuade me...so i'm likely to take issue with that.

i'm basically just extremely accepting of everyone's right to their own opinion and expect the same in return...but if asked will gladly share my view.
 

Virtual ghost

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I think it is need for connection, actually. We relate with people through feelings. If a person doesn't seem to have feeling, how to relate?

I am familiar with this but this actaully explains the"Do you feel anything" question.
The thing is that communication between me an NFs can be hard since they have trouble reading me.


Yeah, you are right. It is sometimes an effort to keep cool. I guess that is because there is some emotional connection to the concepts that are perceived true and important. I might turn the question back at you: Do you apply your concepts into your life? Are they still seen as impersonal? If you live your life according to an idea, is it easy for you to argue against that idea? For me the only ideas I will fight for and get upset about are the ones that define me. So, if you convinced me otherwise it would be the same as taking away my life style.

If I have the right picture of term "Concept" the answer is yes.
Well, to tell you the truth. I am not sure that I know a person that does not think that I should be more passionate and playful.

As for arguing against idea part that something I was preserving for later but It can be said now.

Yes I can argue a idea/position that is not mine and I can do it quite well.
For example me a some other person agree about something.
But I can take the opposite opinion and argue that one as my own.
What people find shocking and/or insane. But the I don't think this way since the only way to truly test ideas can be debated in many cases.
So if there is no one on the opposite side I don't have a problem with it.

This is where problems NFs start. First they have problems reading me plus now I am saying what I don't think in some cases. Which would not be that bad if few days before they did not hear my position.


Not to mention that I feel not loyalty toward ideas. I can think something one day. Think about it over night or have an insight and tomorrow morning I can be against it.



for me personally...i just don't tend to argue unless i'm personally attached to my belief and often...i feel it's my right to have it and not yours to attempt to dissuade me...so i'm likely to take issue with that.

i'm basically just extremely accepting of everyone's right to their own opinion and expect the same in return...but if asked will gladly share my view.

You and I had one similar conversation before.

I don't mind that someone has a belief it is just that this can be bad if it turns to dogma. I as a person think that questioning others peoples position(s) is good.
 

Lady_X

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that's cool if it's something you do in order to clarify your own thoughts but not so cool if the objective is to change theirs.
 

Lady_X

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i mean if you ask for my opinion and then you go about trying to change it...i'd tell you to bugger off.
 

Wild horses

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I know exactly what you mean actually Erina... sometimes it feels like their main objective is to argue for argument sake they demand the right to have their opinion but deny you the same liberty
 

Lady_X

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eclare

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I can argue with an NF for some time and I don't get exiced over it. While NF need sometime to calm down. Also it looks like that they are quite frustrated because of mine impersonal approach.
Is it so hard to understand that I am attacking your position over something not you as a person? Or those two are same for NFs?


I have to say that this rarely applies to INFJs, who usually can and do argue every side of a debate, often within the same conversation. On the other hand, there are a few (very few) moral positions that I believe in absolutely. When someone I respect and care about argues unrelentingly against something that I feel very strongly about then I do take it very personally. But even then, it is rarely that I feel like I am being attacked but more that I feel disappointed and angry that someone I love cannot see the immorality of their own position.

And just so I don't come across as a totally self-righteous douchebage, there are very very few issues that I feel this way about and they almost all involve human rights.
 

Wild horses

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An example... I had some friends who were asking me about my convictions over dietary choices that I have made.. I told them why I decide to eat and certain way... and they argued with me a little about it. I understood their points for eating the way they do and I told them so. I siad that they had some valid points but that we were prioritising different things and so we were never going to arrive at the same conclusion. This would not satisfy them as they claimed that I was emotional and couldn't see things for their point of view.. I told them that I did but it seemed that the only thing they would consider as me objectively seeing their point of view is to chance my stance and tell them they were right??!! what's that about??!!
 

Anja

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To the bunker! To the bunker!
The questions are coming! Redcoats all! :devil:
 

Lady_X

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An example... I had some friends who were asking me about my convictions over dietary choices that I have made.. I told them why I decide to eat and certain way... and they argued with me a little about it. I understood their points for eating the way they do and I told them so. I siad that they had some valid points but that we were prioritising different things and so we were never going to arrive at the same conclusion. This would not satisfy them as they claimed that I was emotional and couldn't see things for their point of view.. I told them that I did but it seemed that the only thing they would consider as me objectively seeing their point of view is to chance my stance and tell them they were right??!! what's that about??!!

totally know what you mean....it's about personal freedom....big enfp thing, i think right?
 

Wild horses

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too true I hate controlling people unfortunately I am surrounded by them particularly in my family and it is the one thing that can make me feel truely depressed!
 

Erudur

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I find that I am a bit less stoic than many of my NT counterparts, including a couple other INTJs I know. So I can find myself in dispassionate arguments as well as passionate ones.

For me there are four different kinds I can think of. Going from minor to major:

1 - Lighthearted exploratory discussions. These are things I don't feel very strongly about but find interesting. These conversations are fun and not aggressive.

2 - Exploratory discussions on topics that I feel are important. There are times when I haven't come to a conclusion on a subject but feel that it is an important one. I have come to realize that on these topics I may come across as argumentative. This is actually my pushing against the boundaries of the subject to figure out what I believe rather than trying to convince others of something.

3 - Encounters with inconsistencies. There are times when discussing a subject that I don't feel really strongly about, but I have encountered somebody who has such gaping inconsistencies and contradictions (or are so misinformed) that I sometimes can't help but jump in and push too hard in pointing out what seems to me to be the obvious. These are often disastrous and I am trying hard to learn to just walk away from these early.

4 - Discussions on topics of morality that have societal implications (and I think most of these do have societal implications). These conversations I don't take lightly, but unlike catagory 3 above, I am cautious as to when and where I enter into these discussions. These are things that I have thought long and hard about, and had a number of catagory 2 discussions over the years. It is hard not to come across as trying to change an opposing position -- because, well, I probably am. But it is never (consciously) because I just want to be right, or feel I am superior. It is usually because I think that the implications of the other position are detrimental to the other individual personally, or to society at large.
 

felt up

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Antisocial One, ever see the films, the INVASION of the BODY SNATCHERS or more recently EQUILIBRIUM? Whenever I'm in the presence of such folk, I do feel like they are pod people, emotionless automatons. Sometimes I feel I must poke at them to see if they are indeed alive. A passionate response and emotionalism of any kind is heavily demonized, or at best, seen as suspect. I've often wondered when did it get so bad that non-expression and a passionless existence became normal? Was it after the dawn of SSRIs?

The other day I ran into a stranger on the street, an older gentleman. I thought he was such a rarity, I engaged in very long discussion with him just to experience his range of emotion. I just don't see it in men of his age. He was absolutely delightful - his happiness, his rage, his humanity, loved it, loved every moment of it.
 
G

Glycerine

Guest
I am familiar with this but this actaully explains the"Do you feel anything" question.
The thing is that communication between me an NFs can be hard since they have trouble reading me.




If I have the right picture of term "Concept" the answer is yes.
Well, to tell you the truth. I am not sure that I know a person that does not think that I should be more passionate and playful.

As for arguing against idea part that something I was preserving for later but It can be said now.

Yes I can argue a idea/position that is not mine and I can do it quite well.
For example me a some other person agree about something.
But I can take the opposite opinion and argue that one as my own.
What people find shocking and/or insane. But the I don't think this way since the only way to truly test ideas can be debated in many cases.
So if there is no one on the opposite side I don't have a problem with it.

This is where problems NFs start. First they have problems reading me plus now I am saying what I don't think in some cases. Which would not be that bad if few days before they did not hear my position.



Not to mention that I feel not loyalty toward ideas. I can think something one day. Think about it over night or have an insight and tomorrow morning I can be against it.

You and I had one similar conversation before.

I don't mind that someone has a belief it is just that this can be bad if it turns to dogma. I as a person think tet hat questioning others peoples position(s) is good.

I understand what you mean. I will occasionally run into this conflict also. It may be due to being a Ni user. I get along really well with the two ENTJ's (I assume they are somewhat similar to INTJs) I know. We will argue many things but we both know not to take each other seriously and rarely offend one another. However, I can also see how other types could view it as negative. They may think you are criticizing and personally attacking them if you dig into, scrutinize and go into depth about why they believe something. (which Ni is good at appearing as if someone is unfamiliar with it). i think when Ni goes overboard, it tends to offend because of its INTENSITY. INFJs probably have an easier time with this because Fe may help inform the individual if they are offending the other person and become more aware of how they may be coming across. (Although many INFJs still may come across as a bit too rigid) ;) Part of it is about balance too. Learning to pick up others' agitations may help you with your interactions and tell you when to quit before offending the other person. When I do offend a person or pick up agitation, I apologize for offending and have no further debates with the person in the future.
 

Moiety

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Hmmm...this world has no respect for true Fness. It's way too cynical and sarcastic and cold. As such, even if I'm a NF, I've already built a wall against specific situations...

If someone mocks my ideals or tries to prove they are illogical (which is rarely possible since I like to think there is some logic to it) I will probably laugh at them. That's why I think ego is very important - you can only get hurt if you deem the other person as capable of hurting you.

That being said, when it's someone close - even though, if they are close, they probably understand me somewhat in the first place - I can get a bit mad at them. You can't have both things, you are either my friend and accept that I'm different (chances are I've done lots to accept your personality, myself) or you are not being true to me most of the time.

Here lies the problem I think : I don't like to have friends who secretly mock me, or filter my words, inside their head. Transparency and truthfulness is important.

But the thing about being transparent myself is that I quickly get people to attack whatever it is they don't like about me, and depending on the results will form a good or bad opinion of them in the first stages of the relationship - that way I only really "invest my time in liking the person" if I know they accept "my outrageousness".
 

Virtual ghost

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Antisocial One, ever see the films, the INVASION of the BODY SNATCHERS or more recently EQUILIBRIUM? Whenever I'm in the presence of such folk, I do feel like they are pod people, emotionless automatons. Sometimes I feel I must poke at them to see if they are indeed alive. A passionate response and emotionalism of any kind is heavily demonized, or at best, seen as suspect. I've often wondered when did it get so bad that non-expression and a passionless existence became normal? Was it after the dawn of SSRIs?

No I haven't seen them but I can presume about what you are talking about.
The thing is that people do this kinds of tests on me. I don't mind them for doing that since I can come as quite reserved.


I understand what you mean. I will occasionally run into this conflict also. It may be due to being a Ni user. I get along really well with the two ENTJ's (I assume they are somewhat similar to INTJs) I know. We will argue many things but we both know not to take each other seriously and rarely offend one another. However, I can also see how other types could view it as negative. They may think you are criticizing and personally attacking them if you dig into, scrutinize and go into depth about why they believe something. (which Ni is good at appearing as if someone is unfamiliar with it). i think when Ni goes overboard, it tends to offend because of its INTENSITY. INFJs probably have an easier time with this because Fe may help inform the individual if they are offending the other person and become more aware of how they may be coming across. (Although many INFJs still may come across as a bit too rigid) ;) Part of it is about balance too. Learning to pick up others' agitations may help you with your interactions and tell you when to quit before offending the other person. When I do offend a person or pick up agitation, I apologize for offending and have no further debates with the person in the future.

Ni surely has something to with this. You are probably right about Fe as well.
If I were to believe functions strenght test my Fe : Te ratio is 1:12
But I think that difference is somewhat smaller.
But still the only thing I have is my thinking about how I effect them when it comes to this.
 

Cimarron

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Yes I can argue a idea/position that is not mine and I can do it quite well.
For example me a some other person agree about something.
But I can take the opposite opinion and argue that one as my own.
What people find shocking and/or insane. But the I don't think this way since the only way to truly test ideas can be debated in many cases.
People shouldn't find this shocking. Maybe uncomfortable or "immoral," but still, teachers in school even suggest you try building this kind of argument.
 
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