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  1. #21
    Glycerine
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    People shouldn't find this shocking. Maybe uncomfortable or "immoral," but still, teachers in school even suggest you try building this kind of argument.
    Out of mere curiosity, why is it "immoral"? Can you please elaborate? (just for further understanding... ).

  2. #22
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Not me personally. I meant that some people might say it's "immoral," I guess is how to describe it: To go against your values temporarily, because thinking of an argument against your values means you consider doing that thing that is against your values, and therefore immoral. ??
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  3. #23
    Glycerine
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    Not me personally. I meant that some people might say it's "immoral," I guess is how to describe it: To go against your values temporarily, because thinking of an argument against your values means you consider doing that thing that is against your values, and therefore immoral. ??
    oh ok, thank you! I wasn't exactly sure what you meant by "immoral" in that context and I didn't want to make assumptions so I thought I should ask.... haha

  4. #24
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    In real life and on this forum many NFs said that dispassionate approach scares them a lot below the surface.
    They say it is scary because if there is no their emotional intensity everything would be quite boring and nothing would have any real point or beauty. So life would be quite horrble existance if it were like this.
    Only thing what I am trying to do is to understand this need to be amused so often (I don't how else to name this)
    I am sure that there will be some generalization in this thread but I don't not how to create it without it. Also I am sure that this is not only a F/T thing.
    The dispassionate approach is the approach I usually take, but I have a really hard time when I know other people are going to be hurt in application of my Thinking. But there's nothing scary at all to me about the impersonal approach, in fact, I wish I cared way less about what other people were feeling, as it would be a more efficient way to maximize my goals.

    Often it happened that an F thinks that something, an object I like and make sure to stay close to that or it can be a idea also. In short, I am talking about something that people see as sacred to me.
    But then problem appears and I rollover those things or throw them away or reject the idea since it is no longer.......... (correct or useful)


    But if an F is watching this, it gets horrfied by this approach. I would dare to say that at some moments it looks like that their heart is broken just by watching ot listening to this.
    Yeah, some NFs are like this I guess. Not me though. I horrify most NFs with my analysis of things.

    I can argue with an NF for some time and I don't get exiced over it. While NF need sometime to calm down. Also it looks like that they are quite frustrated because of mine impersonal approach.
    Is it so hard to understand that I am attacking your position over something not you as a person? Or those two are same for NFs?


    If someone wants to explain they are free to try. I am more interested in explanation of NFs (and SFs) then other opinions since I know theory.
    I want practical insight why NFs don't like this.
    Hm. This doesn't apply to me at all. I'm almost always calm and rarely let emotions cause me to be irrational in conflict resolution. The only time emotion gets in the way is when I worry about making other people flip out. I feel like I have to parent the people around me -- it's like they're little babies, and I could stomp on them way too easily -- if I hurt them by mistake, they'll go crazy and might hurt me in the process. So I walk around with extreme caution. This is definition irrational (I know the personal reasons for why I exhibit this behavior, but they don't apply to all NFs, so they're pretty irrelevant).

    Anyway, because I'm so scared of hurting other people, or making them lose their cool, I've learned to push my own emotional responses down, since they just make it more likely that the other person will flip out.

  5. #25
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    People shouldn't find this shocking. Maybe uncomfortable or "immoral," but still, teachers in school even suggest you try building this kind of argument.
    Well there are cultural differences at work here. Shocking is probably a little bit to drastic word but people find this trait somewhat disturbing.


    It is interesting to see how much ENFPs and INFJs are different when it comes to this.

  6. #26
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    In any case, "debating" with someone with Fe or Te as secondary function (especially Te) can make you feel that you got stuck in a rut. Because nobody provides any informationgiving, both just dissects. You're especially vulnerable if you're the one that needs to defend your own position. It sometimes feels like the IxTJ's I talk to never really learn anything from what I've already been telling them when I talk about values because they don't understand them logically and it gets tiring to re-explain everything all again just to make sence of it. And when your inferior Fi pops in it's like "time to poke on his values AGAIN, just for fun".

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by lorkan View Post
    In any case, "debating" with someone with Fe or Te as secondary function (especially Te) can make you feel that you got stuck in a rut. Because nobody provides any informationgiving, both just dissects. You're especially vulnerable if you're the one that needs to defend your own position. It sometimes feels like the IxTJ's I talk to never really learn anything from what I've already been telling them when I talk about values because they don't understand them logically and it gets tiring to re-explain everything all again just to make sence of it. And when your inferior Fi pops in it's like "time to poke on his values AGAIN, just for fun".

    You are right we don't understand you are values. Especially if they are clearly ilogical. Why would you/someone place so much weight on them?

    But I agree with the Te thing. I often use Te "against" other people.

  8. #28
    morose bourgeoisie
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    Feelers tend to be people oriented. All logic applied to the problems of people contain value judgements.

    So many people who are aligned with valuation are more likely to take issue with someone who presents themselves in a cool and detached manner. The feeler senses intuitively that the truth lies elsewhere.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Santosha's Avatar
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    In real life and on this forum many NFs said that dispassionate approach scares them a lot below the surface.

    Depends on the context. I really enjoy the company of thinkers, and find that they will lead me to things I've overlooked with this "dispassionate" approach, leading them to be of immense value. Many times my greatest insights have been through a combination of logic and feeling. I am only scared of dispassion in personal affairs, like how does the thinker feel about me? They can say over and over they care, but emotionally not show they care?

    They say it is scary because if there is no their emotional intensity everything would be quite boring and nothing would have any real point or beauty. So life would be quite horrble existance if it were like this.

    Try to imagine being in a world of only feelers, where you could not expand on the objectivity of others logic, or share your thoughts with someone that would fully comprehend.. you'd be lonely yes? Wishing for more, yes? Same with feelers.

    Only thing what I am trying to do is to understand this need to be amused so often (I don't how else to name this)
    I am sure that there will be some generalization in this thread but I don't not how to create it without it. Also I am sure that this is not only a F/T thing.


    It's not a matter of amusement. It's a point of reference through understanding. The feeler seeks to understand, and does this through emotion. You seek to understand, but do it through thinking.

    Often it happened that an F thinks that something, an object I like and make sure to stay close to that or it can be a idea also. In short, I am talking about something that people see as sacred to me.
    But then problem appears and I rollover those things or throw them away or reject the idea since it is no longer.......... (correct or useful)


    Language barrier. I'm not sure I understand what is being asked.. do you mean the feeler does not understand how you can abandon a value through additional info? Feelers do this all the time, some better than others. THe info it might take for you to abandon a value with probably be different than the info a feeler uses to abandon a value...

    But if an F is watching this, it gets horrfied by this approach. I would dare to say that at some moments it looks like that their heart is broken just by watching ot listening to this.

    I would need you to elaborate on this.. like what kind of belief are you discarding that breaks the feelers heart?

    I can argue with an NF for some time and I don't get exiced over it. While NF need sometime to calm down. Also it looks like that they are quite frustrated because of mine impersonal approach.
    Is it so hard to understand that I am attacking your position over something not you as a person? Or those two are same for NFs?


    A feelers position can be extremely interwoven with who they are. Many feelers have put tremendous thought, experience, and emotional investment into a stance. To understand, they have had to push their feeling identification out, or open their hearts and allow others in. It is a sensitive experience, incredibly abstract and can not be limited to words, it does not follow a purely logical line. Undertones, expressions, connections, basically an energy identification, but not any more or less relevant than objective thinking. A thinker might look at another person and know they are sad. They might know this because the person is frowning, or crying, or perhaps by a few subtle comments the person has made. So they THINK sad. But do they UNDERSTAND sad? Can they feel the energy of it? Can they identify it emotionally? When you understand emotional identification in a scenario, you soon understand that objectivity is not all there is. It is not the only truth. It is one facet. When you disagree with a feeler about something they feel strongly about, it might be because you do not have all the pieces, you have not considered the info they have because you can't, or its not your strong point.
    Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun - Watts

  10. #30
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    Depends on how dispassionate you are. Someone who can be dispassionate and rational can be a godsend, but only if they also have emotions. Someone who seems completely emotionally flat is not appealing to me at all. I don't know about scary (I suppose it could be) but it's just...boring. I don't relate. Emotionally flat people seem half-alive to me.

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