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  1. #11
    Senior Member Wild horses's Avatar
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    An example... I had some friends who were asking me about my convictions over dietary choices that I have made.. I told them why I decide to eat and certain way... and they argued with me a little about it. I understood their points for eating the way they do and I told them so. I siad that they had some valid points but that we were prioritising different things and so we were never going to arrive at the same conclusion. This would not satisfy them as they claimed that I was emotional and couldn't see things for their point of view.. I told them that I did but it seemed that the only thing they would consider as me objectively seeing their point of view is to chance my stance and tell them they were right??!! what's that about??!!
    ... couldn't drag me away

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  2. #12
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    To the bunker! To the bunker!
    The questions are coming! Redcoats all!
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  3. #13
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wild horses View Post
    An example... I had some friends who were asking me about my convictions over dietary choices that I have made.. I told them why I decide to eat and certain way... and they argued with me a little about it. I understood their points for eating the way they do and I told them so. I siad that they had some valid points but that we were prioritising different things and so we were never going to arrive at the same conclusion. This would not satisfy them as they claimed that I was emotional and couldn't see things for their point of view.. I told them that I did but it seemed that the only thing they would consider as me objectively seeing their point of view is to chance my stance and tell them they were right??!! what's that about??!!
    totally know what you mean....it's about personal freedom....big enfp thing, i think right?
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  4. #14
    Senior Member Wild horses's Avatar
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    too true I hate controlling people unfortunately I am surrounded by them particularly in my family and it is the one thing that can make me feel truely depressed!
    ... couldn't drag me away

    Željko Ražnatovic: argus
    Željko Ražnatovic: do you want heir's?
    WildHorses: HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
    Željko Ražnatovic: to carry your genealogical code??

  5. #15
    Senior Member Erudur's Avatar
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    I find that I am a bit less stoic than many of my NT counterparts, including a couple other INTJs I know. So I can find myself in dispassionate arguments as well as passionate ones.

    For me there are four different kinds I can think of. Going from minor to major:

    1 - Lighthearted exploratory discussions. These are things I don't feel very strongly about but find interesting. These conversations are fun and not aggressive.

    2 - Exploratory discussions on topics that I feel are important. There are times when I haven't come to a conclusion on a subject but feel that it is an important one. I have come to realize that on these topics I may come across as argumentative. This is actually my pushing against the boundaries of the subject to figure out what I believe rather than trying to convince others of something.

    3 - Encounters with inconsistencies. There are times when discussing a subject that I don't feel really strongly about, but I have encountered somebody who has such gaping inconsistencies and contradictions (or are so misinformed) that I sometimes can't help but jump in and push too hard in pointing out what seems to me to be the obvious. These are often disastrous and I am trying hard to learn to just walk away from these early.

    4 - Discussions on topics of morality that have societal implications (and I think most of these do have societal implications). These conversations I don't take lightly, but unlike catagory 3 above, I am cautious as to when and where I enter into these discussions. These are things that I have thought long and hard about, and had a number of catagory 2 discussions over the years. It is hard not to come across as trying to change an opposing position -- because, well, I probably am. But it is never (consciously) because I just want to be right, or feel I am superior. It is usually because I think that the implications of the other position are detrimental to the other individual personally, or to society at large.

  6. #16
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    Antisocial One, ever see the films, the INVASION of the BODY SNATCHERS or more recently EQUILIBRIUM? Whenever I'm in the presence of such folk, I do feel like they are pod people, emotionless automatons. Sometimes I feel I must poke at them to see if they are indeed alive. A passionate response and emotionalism of any kind is heavily demonized, or at best, seen as suspect. I've often wondered when did it get so bad that non-expression and a passionless existence became normal? Was it after the dawn of SSRIs?

    The other day I ran into a stranger on the street, an older gentleman. I thought he was such a rarity, I engaged in very long discussion with him just to experience his range of emotion. I just don't see it in men of his age. He was absolutely delightful - his happiness, his rage, his humanity, loved it, loved every moment of it.

  7. #17
    Glycerine
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    I am familiar with this but this actaully explains the"Do you feel anything" question.
    The thing is that communication between me an NFs can be hard since they have trouble reading me.




    If I have the right picture of term "Concept" the answer is yes.
    Well, to tell you the truth. I am not sure that I know a person that does not think that I should be more passionate and playful.

    As for arguing against idea part that something I was preserving for later but It can be said now.

    Yes I can argue a idea/position that is not mine and I can do it quite well.
    For example me a some other person agree about something.
    But I can take the opposite opinion and argue that one as my own.
    What people find shocking and/or insane. But the I don't think this way since the only way to truly test ideas can be debated in many cases.
    So if there is no one on the opposite side I don't have a problem with it.

    This is where problems NFs start. First they have problems reading me plus now I am saying what I don't think in some cases. Which would not be that bad if few days before they did not hear my position.



    Not to mention that I feel not loyalty toward ideas. I can think something one day. Think about it over night or have an insight and tomorrow morning I can be against it.

    You and I had one similar conversation before.

    I don't mind that someone has a belief it is just that this can be bad if it turns to dogma. I as a person think tet hat questioning others peoples position(s) is good.
    I understand what you mean. I will occasionally run into this conflict also. It may be due to being a Ni user. I get along really well with the two ENTJ's (I assume they are somewhat similar to INTJs) I know. We will argue many things but we both know not to take each other seriously and rarely offend one another. However, I can also see how other types could view it as negative. They may think you are criticizing and personally attacking them if you dig into, scrutinize and go into depth about why they believe something. (which Ni is good at appearing as if someone is unfamiliar with it). i think when Ni goes overboard, it tends to offend because of its INTENSITY. INFJs probably have an easier time with this because Fe may help inform the individual if they are offending the other person and become more aware of how they may be coming across. (Although many INFJs still may come across as a bit too rigid) Part of it is about balance too. Learning to pick up others' agitations may help you with your interactions and tell you when to quit before offending the other person. When I do offend a person or pick up agitation, I apologize for offending and have no further debates with the person in the future.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Hmmm...this world has no respect for true Fness. It's way too cynical and sarcastic and cold. As such, even if I'm a NF, I've already built a wall against specific situations...

    If someone mocks my ideals or tries to prove they are illogical (which is rarely possible since I like to think there is some logic to it) I will probably laugh at them. That's why I think ego is very important - you can only get hurt if you deem the other person as capable of hurting you.

    That being said, when it's someone close - even though, if they are close, they probably understand me somewhat in the first place - I can get a bit mad at them. You can't have both things, you are either my friend and accept that I'm different (chances are I've done lots to accept your personality, myself) or you are not being true to me most of the time.

    Here lies the problem I think : I don't like to have friends who secretly mock me, or filter my words, inside their head. Transparency and truthfulness is important.

    But the thing about being transparent myself is that I quickly get people to attack whatever it is they don't like about me, and depending on the results will form a good or bad opinion of them in the first stages of the relationship - that way I only really "invest my time in liking the person" if I know they accept "my outrageousness".

  9. #19
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by felt up View Post
    Antisocial One, ever see the films, the INVASION of the BODY SNATCHERS or more recently EQUILIBRIUM? Whenever I'm in the presence of such folk, I do feel like they are pod people, emotionless automatons. Sometimes I feel I must poke at them to see if they are indeed alive. A passionate response and emotionalism of any kind is heavily demonized, or at best, seen as suspect. I've often wondered when did it get so bad that non-expression and a passionless existence became normal? Was it after the dawn of SSRIs?
    No I haven't seen them but I can presume about what you are talking about.
    The thing is that people do this kinds of tests on me. I don't mind them for doing that since I can come as quite reserved.


    Quote Originally Posted by IDK123 View Post
    I understand what you mean. I will occasionally run into this conflict also. It may be due to being a Ni user. I get along really well with the two ENTJ's (I assume they are somewhat similar to INTJs) I know. We will argue many things but we both know not to take each other seriously and rarely offend one another. However, I can also see how other types could view it as negative. They may think you are criticizing and personally attacking them if you dig into, scrutinize and go into depth about why they believe something. (which Ni is good at appearing as if someone is unfamiliar with it). i think when Ni goes overboard, it tends to offend because of its INTENSITY. INFJs probably have an easier time with this because Fe may help inform the individual if they are offending the other person and become more aware of how they may be coming across. (Although many INFJs still may come across as a bit too rigid) Part of it is about balance too. Learning to pick up others' agitations may help you with your interactions and tell you when to quit before offending the other person. When I do offend a person or pick up agitation, I apologize for offending and have no further debates with the person in the future.
    Ni surely has something to with this. You are probably right about Fe as well.
    If I were to believe functions strenght test my Fe : Te ratio is 1:12
    But I think that difference is somewhat smaller.
    But still the only thing I have is my thinking about how I effect them when it comes to this.

  10. #20
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    Yes I can argue a idea/position that is not mine and I can do it quite well.
    For example me a some other person agree about something.
    But I can take the opposite opinion and argue that one as my own.
    What people find shocking and/or insane. But the I don't think this way since the only way to truly test ideas can be debated in many cases.
    People shouldn't find this shocking. Maybe uncomfortable or "immoral," but still, teachers in school even suggest you try building this kind of argument.
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

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