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  1. #11
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    Ah...

    So what do you think was the motivation behind beyondaurora's OP

  2. #12
    Senior Mugwump Apollanaut's Avatar
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    Yeah, that's one of the ways Fe works. Unfortunately, it's easy for Fe to pick up lots of "shoulds" and "oughts" about how to express oneself in public. When this happens, Fe may have very little to do with how we actually feel about something, which is the domain of Fi. The classic example is: "I don't know how I feel about that until I've spoken to other people!".

    Ideally, both Fe and Fi can work together to balance each other out. Fi helps Fe to remain sincere and in touch with genuine Feeling, while Fe assists Fi to express itself in an appropriate manner and can help prevent the inward spirals to which Fi is prone.
    INFJ 9w1 sx/sp/so

    "A wizard is never late. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to." - Gandalf The Grey

    And if I only could,
    I'd make a deal with God,
    And I'd get him to swap our places,
    Be running up that road,
    Be running up that hill,
    With no problems.

    - Kate Bush

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by disregard View Post
    Ah...

    So what do you think was the motivation behind beyondaurora's OP
    She has no idea what type she is, and is attempting to discover it via functional analysis. /N

  4. #14
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Fe: I feel this way because most people should feel this way under these circumstances.
    Fi: I feel because I do. Doesn't everybody feel this way too?

    e.g. 2 with man at Taco Bell
    He has no rights to call you "honey" because you're not in an intimate relationship with him...
    Is it really because he's not in a relationship with you, or it is because only people in intimate relationships should use the term "honey"?
    Case 2? Fe.
    My stuff (design & other junk) lives here: http://nnbox.ca

  5. #15
    Senior Mugwump Apollanaut's Avatar
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    Apologies in advance to Jack Flak for using his name in connection with a theory which he does not believe (my Fe in action again!) but the ongoing debate here is an excellent illustration of the difference between Ti and Ni.

    Ti often judges things by “Truth”; in contrast Ni is more concerned with "Usefulness". Jack does not consider functional analysis to be a true representation of type dynamics and frequently comments on this (no criticism implied here Jack!). From my Ni perspective, however, I don't actually care whether or not type functions are "true" or not, merely whether or not they can be useful for:

    a) Understanding a person's current dilemma.
    b) Suggesting a practical course of action which will help that person resolve the dilemma.

    With that in mind, here are my thoughts on your initial question, Beyondaurora.

    The mere fact that you are starting to question the authenticity of your feelings suggests that your own Fi function is in action here. According to the 8 function model of John Beebe and others (no need to go into more detail here), Fi functions in INFJs and ISFJs as a sort of internal “Critical Parent” (also known as the archetypal Witch/Senex).

    In your case, it may be making you feel guilty for not knowing what your “true” feelings are in the situations you describe. This in turn will make Fe (your “Good Parent” function) concerned that its responses are inappropriate, or worse, inauthentic, which allows critical Fi to slip in through the cracks and further undermine your sense of self-worth.

    I’ve experienced this myself and it feels utterly miserable. My best suggestion if this is indeed the case (if you’re not simply curious about the functions and are not experiencing the internal conflict I’ve described) is to allow Fi to express itself on its own terms. You could, for example, explore some type of artistic expression. Something light and freeform ( I use journalling or drawing myself, or simply doodling) with no prior expectations works best. At the very least, this allows Fi to blow off some steam and reduce the need to self-criticise. At its best, the results or your freeform expression may give you some really useful and enlightening insights about your personal feelings and whether or not your deepest needs are being met.

    This is the positive side of the Critical Parent function: a source of "magical" discovery that can tap into a deep source of personal wisdom.
    INFJ 9w1 sx/sp/so

    "A wizard is never late. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to." - Gandalf The Grey

    And if I only could,
    I'd make a deal with God,
    And I'd get him to swap our places,
    Be running up that road,
    Be running up that hill,
    With no problems.

    - Kate Bush

  6. #16
    Senior Member Wild horses's Avatar
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    I really struggle with this all the time... I struggle oftentimes to identify which feelings I feel out of a sense of duty... which feelings I pick up from someone else and so are not my own and which are my own feelings.. on top of this I have a drive for authenticity and so make judgements about my own feelings
    ... couldn't drag me away

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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apollanaut View Post
    Apologies in advance to Jack Flak for using his name in connection with a theory which he does not believe (my Fe in action again!) but the ongoing debate here is an excellent illustration of the difference between Ti and Ni.

    Ti often judges things by “Truth”; in contrast Ni is more concerned with "Usefulness". Jack does not consider functional analysis to be a true representation of type dynamics and frequently comments on this (no criticism implied here Jack!). From my Ni perspective, however, I don't actually care whether or not type functions are "true" or not, merely whether or not they can be useful for:
    But that's not Ni in any way. Everyone loves a big fat lie.

    What I've said a hundred times is that people (and now you, specifically) are redefining the functions based on what you do. If you thought your primary function were Ti, you'd be calling it that instead of Ni. Clear as day.

    The meaning of this analysis (Which is coincidentally a lot closer to being Ni-derived than the above quote) is that the function prescription is only minded superficially, and it's completely unnecessary. Analysis of the type INFJ is enough, and it's what you're doing, regardless.

    Consider it similar to how people practice religion almost exclusively: They pick and choose the tenets which make sense to them, and disregard those which seem antiquated. Which means, just as in my example, throw out the tenets, and what you're left with is people behaving exactly the same, because they don't need a book to use common sense. The tenets are unnecessary.

  8. #18
    beyondaurora
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apollanaut View Post
    Apologies in advance to Jack Flak for using his name in connection with a theory which he does not believe (my Fe in action again!) but the ongoing debate here is an excellent illustration of the difference between Ti and Ni.

    Ti often judges things by “Truth”; in contrast Ni is more concerned with "Usefulness". Jack does not consider functional analysis to be a true representation of type dynamics and frequently comments on this (no criticism implied here Jack!). From my Ni perspective, however, I don't actually care whether or not type functions are "true" or not, merely whether or not they can be useful for:

    a) Understanding a person's current dilemma.
    b) Suggesting a practical course of action which will help that person resolve the dilemma.

    With that in mind, here are my thoughts on your initial question, Beyondaurora.

    The mere fact that you are starting to question the authenticity of your feelings suggests that your own Fi function is in action here. According to the 8 function model of John Beebe and others (no need to go into more detail here), Fi functions in INFJs and ISFJs as a sort of internal “Critical Parent” (also known as the archetypal Witch/Senex).

    In your case, it may be making you feel guilty for not knowing what your “true” feelings are in the situations you describe. This in turn will make Fe (your “Good Parent” function) concerned that its responses are inappropriate, or worse, inauthentic, which allows critical Fi to slip in through the cracks and further undermine your sense of self-worth.

    I’ve experienced this myself and it feels utterly miserable. My best suggestion if this is indeed the case (if you’re not simply curious about the functions and are not experiencing the internal conflict I’ve described) is to allow Fi to express itself on its own terms. You could, for example, explore some type of artistic expression. Something light and freeform ( I use journalling or drawing myself, or simply doodling) with no prior expectations works best. At the very least, this allows Fi to blow off some steam and reduce the need to self-criticise. At its best, the results or your freeform expression may give you some really useful and enlightening insights about your personal feelings and whether or not your deepest needs are being met.

    This is the positive side of the Critical Parent function: a source of "magical" discovery that can tap into a deep source of personal wisdom.
    Apollanaut - you are awesome!

    My intent is two-fold: to better understand the functions as well as understand this sense of internal conflict I'm experiencing. So you are spot on.

    There is an activity that I really enjoy doing when I'm feeling especially hard on myself. I take a piece of paper, close my eyes, and begin scribbling until I feel done. I open my eyes and look at the scribble to see what image emerges between its spaces. I then fill in the image with watercolor paints. It's been an amazing discovery for me! I always feel much lighter after this activity.

  9. #19
    Badoom~ Skyward's Avatar
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    My intent is two-fold: to better understand the functions as well as understand this sense of internal conflict I'm experiencing. So you are spot on.
    I'm in nearly exactly the same boat as you, Aurora. I still mentally flit from type to type like an ADD mouse in a cheese shop. It's been helping me to just use type as vocabulary. I've figured that learning how the functions work is more important than knowing someone's type. Learning type should be supplementary knowledge, not primary knowledge.

    I need to try that sometime, sounds neat
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  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by disregard View Post
    Ah...

    So what do you think was the motivation behind beyondaurora's OP
    I believe the reason was to understand her type and herself better. But Jack is right. The action may not even be type related. Why use type theory to explain a human problem? She is uncomfortable with him calling her honey. The reasons for this can be anything from past relationships, a bad association with the word, a sacred association with the word, past feelings brought back by the word, a fear of the unknown, feeling uncomfortable with men, a defensive need for self protection, etc. Why would it be about Fi vs Fe any more than these other things? Why would suppressed feelings due to a troubled past be about either also? That's a human reaction to avoid pain. The emotions don't come out with it sometimes because they rip to the core. Not just for INFJs, but for every type. Type is about cognitive functions, how you take in data and process it. What interface was put in for connecting with self and the world. It says nothing about emotions. An example is the INTP who has Fe as inferior. If you broke up his family he would be as distressed as any INFJ would. His feelings of loss would run just as deep.

    The important thing to realise is not everyone works the same as you, but they are all humans. Anything human is shared by all the types. It is just styles of expression and approach that are not. Many people who scare you just work differently, but they are people. They may show it less when you kick them in the head and stuff, but they still feel it. And when it comes to bad people, you can ask any ENFP the number of times they have looked into someone's soul and seen pure evil, they will probably say never. But people often are too scared to look deep enough to see anything different. Life is easier and less complicated if you can write people off and keep it in black and white. And according to the media and some the streets are full of evil.

    I think what I'm trying to say, is if you are trying to type yourself, it isn't the right way. If you are trying to fix underlying issues in your life, look at them from a human perspective, and look at others from a human perspective. Type can help you see how people work, but the issues attack at a deeper level.
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