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[NF] NF Pragmatists?

Nonsensical

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I guess I just realized that I have a tendency to be more Pragmatic in thinking, than Idealistic..when you set aside deep human intimicy, etc. I kind of look at the world as semi-decent, where bad things will, and always will happen, no matter what. I feel that without everything bad in this world, there would be no good, so I seldom look at Global Warming, Human Hunger, and War as something to fight against..I personally think that it's necessary, to keep the human population in check. I guess one of my few philosophies is the concept of the Yin and the Yang: Bad and Good, coexisting in harmony..take away one, and the other cancels out. Know what I'm saying?

Now NTs, I'd love it if you posted as well, because I want both sides to this. I'm not saying that Idealism resides in me, but when it comes to this world, I have painted my face black, as the Natives American have done, and am welcoming the end, acceptently.

Does this contradict my NF? Do other NFs feel this way? What do you think.
 

kyuuei

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I tend to be the same way. I'm big on the whole balance thing. Just as it's healthy to show darker emotions as much as it is to show lighter ones, I feel the world works much the same way. We wouldn't survive without the good in the world, and no one would be motivated to even move, moreless help others, if there was no reason to (as in the bad of the world didn't exist.)

I'm not sure my thoughts of war yet... not entirely. Nor am I sure of starvation, world hunger, and such..

Even my daily life things lean more toward efficiency, not what's more theoretical and idealistic.
 

lorkan

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I think this is certanly NF-views. Although I think INFP's and ENFP's problably view themselves as more important then other people and don't want, in any case, become a victim. While ENFJ's and INFJ's will "accept" their "role" in a situation where they become victims.

NFP's want to live forever and NFJ's want to be remembered forever.
 

Amargith

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I think this is certanly NF-views. Although I think INFP's and ENFP's problably view themselves as more important then other people and don't want, in any case, become a victim. While ENFJ's and INFJ's will "accept" their "role" in a situation where they become victims.

NFP's want to live forever and NFJ's want to be remembered forever.

no and...no.


As for the OP, as much as the dark can be a drag, balance is idd important. One example is that I've learned to appreciate not only the feeling 'love' but also the feeling 'jealousy', no matter how annoying it can be. I admit though that in some other areas I find it harder to achieve this balance, though I do strive for this.
 

Nonsensical

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I think this is certanly NF-views. Although I think INFP's and ENFP's problably view themselves as more important then other people and don't want, in any case, become a victim. While ENFJ's and INFJ's will "accept" their "role" in a situation where they become victims.

NFP's want to live forever and NFJ's want to be remembered forever.

I don't know if I'd agree with this. I know I would never, ever, want to live forever..or even past like 80. All the sufferin..I'd just want to die.

I think P's in general are more likely to accept things, whereas Js might need or want to manipulate there environment.

I guess we don't see eye to eye on this matter.
 

Nonsensical

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I tend to be the same way. I'm big on the whole balance thing. Just as it's healthy to show darker emotions as much as it is to show lighter ones, I feel the world works much the same way. We wouldn't survive without the good in the world, and no one would be motivated to even move, moreless help others, if there was no reason to (as in the bad of the world didn't exist.)

I'm not sure my thoughts of war yet... not entirely. Nor am I sure of starvation, world hunger, and such..

Even my daily life things lean more toward efficiency, not what's more theoretical and idealistic.

no and...no.


As for the OP, as much as the dark can be a drag, balance is idd important. One example is that I've learned to appreciate not only the feeling 'love' but also the feeling 'jealousy', no matter how annoying it can be. I admit though that in some other areas I find it harder to achieve this balance, though I do strive for this.

Would it be common for another NF to disagree with me?
 

Amargith

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I don't know if I'd agree with this. I know I would never, ever, want to live forever..or even past like 80. All the sufferin..I'd just want to die.

I think P's in general are more likely to accept things, whereas Js might need or want to manipulate there environment.

I guess we don't see eye to eye on this matter.

Might be that s/he was referring to the tendency of P's to live in a 'fantasy world', rather than being willing to deal with reality, whereas J's tend to try and navigate the real world more readily, I guess. Depends highly on the individual as well though.
 

placebo

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haha I kind of don't get the concept of "accepting their role" as the victim. I think that's kind of... missing the point? It sounds as if seeing yourself as a victim is a good thing... and I don't think that makes sense to me.

But to the OP, yea, I do get what you're saying, and I do tend to follow this pragmatism, and sometimes it turns into practicality which gets me looking like an SJ at times, if that's right.


edit: Er, also I don't know about there being a balance of good and evil. It's like comparing cold and hot. Without heat, it's cold. Without good, it's bad. Something like that. Actually I don't feel like I'm making much sense right now, my brain is somewhere else haha
 

lorkan

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I guess I could try to explain it. Being just a human on this planet among 6 million of other people, you eventually do have to get your hands dirty and will eventually have to suffer to do some sort of greater good. Being realistic, as in having experienced hunger, wartime, being prisoner, would eventually profit in the greater cause or good intuitive ideal. Make you grow as a person with alot more knowledge and empathy. I, personally, haven't suffered at all in my wealthy home here in Sweden and therefor have never tasted any bitterness in suffering. I'm just sitting on my rich as dreaming :)
 

Nonsensical

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haha I kind of don't get the concept of "accepting their role" as the victim. I think that's kind of... missing the point? It sounds as if seeing yourself as a victim is a good thing... and I don't think that makes sense to me.

But to the OP, yea, I do get what you're saying, and I do tend to follow this pragmatism, and sometimes it turns into practicality which gets me looking like an SJ at times, if that's right.


edit: Er, also I don't know about there being a balance of good and evil. It's like comparing cold and hot. Without heat, it's cold. Without good, it's bad. Something like that. Actually I don't feel like I'm making much sense right now, my brain is somewhere else haha


Yeah, I thought about the SJ and pessemism, but I guess SJs are more prone to judge society as being cold, and hostile..whereas I am looking deeply into it, and coinsidering all aspects. I think I worded that right..if not, sorry for being judgemental.
 

Nonsensical

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I gues what I'm really getting at here, is..why waste time trying to make this world something it's not. Please don't take that wrong, I mean in the nicest and deepest way, think about it.

It is stated in a Course in Miracles, that You shouldn't try to change the world, but rather change your mindset upon it. I have certainly done that, and I feel that if one veiws the world and mankind from a Pragmatists point of veiw, that it will, in turn, lead to inner-peace. This ties in with Buddhism too, it's roots run deep. Look as badness as not being certain things that go on in this world, like wars and such, but as a side of humankind that will always be present. We should just accept that we can't escape it, it's innevitable. Learn to work around it, learn to channel it into strength of spirit.
 

cascadeco

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I kind of look at the world as semi-decent, where bad things will, and always will happen, no matter what.

Agree with this statement, because, well, it's true.

I feel that without everything bad in this world, there would be no good

Disagree here. I think bad is what makes us more liable to recognize and appreciate good, but I don't think the reason there is good is due to the fact that bad exists.

so I seldom look at Global Warming, Human Hunger, and War as something to fight against..I personally think that it's necessary, to keep the human population in check.

I don't think it's necessary, so I don't subscribe to the notion of kicking back and letting things happen.

I think about global warming and environmental stuff all the time, and it absolutely kills me. Realistically, I think most of the stuff cannot be stopped at this point, given how our world/society is currently structured, human nature, and society on a grand scale. But just because I think ultimately bad shit will happen, doesn't mean I still don't believe in the power of the individual, either. Because I really do. Things might possibly change for the better, and things might reverse, if enough people actually cared and made changes themselves. Problem is getting enough people to care.

Hunger. Equality is an impossibility - things will never be 'fair', and there will always be a class structure. It's inevitable. And hunger as it exists today is the result of a whole slew of things. I agree human population is a huge problem, and think it does need to be checked, but I can't say I'd go so far as to say hunger is 'necessary' to keep it in check. Hunger exists, but population rises. We're not getting to the root of the problem, but the root is so entangled at this point with many other issues that we'd have to start everything from scratch, probably.

War will always be present, given human nature, and desire of certain personalities to attain power and maintain control. Happens today, will happen in the future, was the case thousands and thousands of years ago.

I guess one of my few philosophies is the concept of the Yin and the Yang: Bad and Good, coexisting in harmony..take away one, and the other cancels out. Know what I'm saying?

Back to what I first said, I don't think they'd cancel each other out. I don't think taking bad away would mean good would disappear as well. But there certainly can seem to be a balance.

Now NTs, I'd love it if you posted as well, because I want both sides to this. I'm not saying that Idealism resides in me, but when it comes to this world, I have painted my face black, as the Natives American have done, and am welcoming the end, acceptently.

Does this contradict my NF? Do other NFs feel this way? What do you think.

Don't know that it contradicts NF, as all NF's will probably have their own philosophy/view of the world. I personally don't really view things this way, as I can't say I'm welcoming the end at all -- I think humans suck most of the time, actually, and I get angry about a lot of it -- but it doesn't mean I welcome the 'end' with open arms, or accept any of it. Back to power of the individual, and trying to impact things you CAN impact. Obviously nearly all of us will not be able to have an impact on a grand scale though. I'm definitely an idealist in some ways, but I think I have a good dose of realism too. Throw in some rationalism, some empiricism, lol. ;-)

Edit: and lorkan's first quote, is, well, very silly. ;-) Definitely not an accurate description of the NF's I know.
 

Gamine

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I don't know if I'd agree with this. I know I would never, ever, want to live forever..or even past like 80. All the sufferin..I'd just want to die.

I think P's in general are more likely to accept things, whereas Js might need or want to manipulate there environment.

I guess we don't see eye to eye on this matter.

Yeah we really don't. I would never NEVER never accept a bad situation happening to me. being imposed on me. Bad things happen all the time, your character is defined by how you face those situations. This sounds like more of a "locus of control" issue than something that can be generalized by MBTI.

Whether it's my internal value system or locus of control, I'm going to do what I can to help so-called "victims" have a safe environment to have the dialogue that is needed to define their own changes and evaluations.

(Note: not imposing values on others)

I firmly and absolutely believe that people, with support, communication and the introduction of responsibility (social, environmental, intellectual) as a common societal expectation can make better decisions in their daily lives to grow in the direction of self-improvement.

Evil exists as long as we let it.
 

Nonsensical

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Yeah we really don't. I would never NEVER never accept a bad situation happening to me. being imposed on me. Bad things happen all the time, your character is defined by how you face those situations. This sounds like more of a "locus of control" issue than something that can be generalized by MBTI.

Whether it's my internal value system or locus of control, I'm going to do what I can to help so-called "victims" have a safe environment to have the dialogue that is needed to define their own changes and evaluations.

(Note: not imposing values on others)

I firmly and absolutely believe that people, with support, communication and the introduction of responsibility (social, environmental, intellectual) as a common societal expectation can make better decisions in their daily lives to grow in the direction of self-improvement.

Evil exists as long as we let it.


Must be my values..I seldom set my values on things of this world. My values lie in the people I love, and other than that, I hate to say, the world is the world..I am in the world, but not of it.
 

Nonsensical

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Agree with this statement, because, well, it's true.



Disagree here. I think bad is what makes us more liable to recognize and appreciate good, but I don't think the reason there is good is due to the fact that bad exists.



I don't think it's necessary, so I don't subscribe to the notion of kicking back and letting things happen.

I think about global warming and environmental stuff all the time, and it absolutely kills me. Realistically, I think most of the stuff cannot be stopped at this point, given how our world/society is currently structured, human nature, and society on a grand scale. But just because I think ultimately bad shit will happen, doesn't mean I still don't believe in the power of the individual, either. Because I really do. Things might possibly change for the better, and things might reverse, if enough people actually cared and made changes themselves. Problem is getting enough people to care.

Hunger. Equality is an impossibility - things will never be 'fair', and there will always be a class structure. It's inevitable. And hunger as it exists today is the result of a whole slew of things. I agree human population is a huge problem, and think it does need to be checked, but I can't say I'd go so far as to say hunger is 'necessary' to keep it in check. Hunger exists, but population rises. We're not getting to the root of the problem, but the root is so entangled at this point with many other issues that we'd have to start everything from scratch, probably.

War will always be present, given human nature, and desire of certain personalities to attain power and maintain control. Happens today, will happen in the future, was the case thousands and thousands of years ago.



Back to what I first said, I don't think they'd cancel each other out. I don't think taking bad away would mean good would disappear as well. But there certainly can seem to be a balance.



Don't know that it contradicts NF, as all NF's will probably have their own philosophy/view of the world. I personally don't really view things this way, as I can't say I'm welcoming the end at all -- I think humans suck most of the time, actually, and I get angry about a lot of it -- but it doesn't mean I welcome the 'end' with open arms, or accept any of it. Back to power of the individual, and trying to impact things you CAN impact. Obviously nearly all of us will not be able to have an impact on a grand scale though. I'm definitely an idealist in some ways, but I think I have a good dose of realism too. Throw in some rationalism, some empiricism, lol. ;-)

Edit: and lorkan's first quote, is, well, very silly. ;-) Definitely not an accurate description of the NF's I know.

In a sense, and now that I think of it, your right. I'd like to change what I said about the bad and the good. What I guess I ment was that, without the bad, we wouldn't be able to be as happy as we are. Think about it: if everything was good, it would just be normal..but if you add the aspect of negativity, hypothetically, you'd be able to feel more happy, when you look in perspective.
 

Gamine

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Must be my values..I seldom set my values on things of this world. My values lie in the people I love, and other than that, I hate to say, the world is the world..I am in the world, but not of it.

I find this quality incredible, it takes a lot to be able to give to those closest to you. It's something I love most about my INFP best friend, her ability to constantly give and give to her closest and most dear. She definitely has an anchoring and supporting role in my life now, and I am very grateful for it.
:)
 

cascadeco

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In a sense, and now that I think of it, your right. I'd like to change what I said about the bad and the good. What I guess I ment was that, without the bad, we wouldn't be able to be as happy as we are. Think about it: if everything was good, it would just be normal..but if you add the aspect of negativity, hypothetically, you'd be able to feel more happy, when you look in perspective.

Oh, I definitely understand what you're saying, especially on an individual emotional level. :yes: Emotionally, if you were on a 'high' all of the time, it would become your new baseline, so to speak, and it would lose that specialness, perhaps. It's the very rarity of an emotion like pure joy that makes it that much more intense and meaningful. And it can be painful to come down from that high.

But yeah, when you mentioned 'good' and 'bad' in your OP, I was taking it to mean on a larger scale, getting into human behaviors and choices and actions, etc. On a societal level - hence, my response.
 

Nonsensical

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I find this quality incredible, it takes a lot to be able to give to those closest to you. It's something I love most about my INFP best friend, her ability to constantly give and give to her closest and most dear. She definitely has an anchoring and supporting role in my life now, and I am very grateful for it.
:)


Awh, well thank you for sharing that. I would rather save a single life, than save the entire world, no matter the person.
Edit: (Although that sounds completely contradicting, I hope you know what I mean).
 

Nonsensical

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Oh, I definitely understand what you're saying, especially on an individual emotional level. :yes: Emotionally, if you were on a 'high' all of the time, it would become your new baseline, so to speak, and it would lose that specialness, perhaps. It's the very rarity of an emotion like pure joy that makes it that much more intense and meaningful. And it can be painful to come down from that high.

But yeah, when you mentioned 'good' and 'bad' in your OP, I was taking it to mean on a larger scale, getting into human behaviors and choices and actions, etc. On a societal level - hence, my response.


And that's what life is! In a sense, you could look at life as a grey spectrum or "normal" events, with a few good things thrown in there, that make you happy. Everything else, we label as bad, because in one way or another, it works against us..but no. We're allapart of this world, so when you look at it from a personal note, theres a little good that means a lot, and the rest is just greyness..

Sorry If I lost you there, I kind of got into it, if you know what I mean. It's an INFP thing.
 

Nonsensical

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Wow, this has really altered some of my veiws..thanks guys!
 
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