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Thread: NF Pragmatists?

  1. #11
    Senior Member Nonsensical's Avatar
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    I gues what I'm really getting at here, is..why waste time trying to make this world something it's not. Please don't take that wrong, I mean in the nicest and deepest way, think about it.

    It is stated in a Course in Miracles, that You shouldn't try to change the world, but rather change your mindset upon it. I have certainly done that, and I feel that if one veiws the world and mankind from a Pragmatists point of veiw, that it will, in turn, lead to inner-peace. This ties in with Buddhism too, it's roots run deep. Look as badness as not being certain things that go on in this world, like wars and such, but as a side of humankind that will always be present. We should just accept that we can't escape it, it's innevitable. Learn to work around it, learn to channel it into strength of spirit.
    Is it that by its indefiniteness it shadows forth the heartless voids and immensities of the universe, and thus stabs us from behind with the thought of annihilation, when beholding the white depths of the milky way?

  2. #12
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneWithSoul View Post
    I kind of look at the world as semi-decent, where bad things will, and always will happen, no matter what.
    Agree with this statement, because, well, it's true.

    I feel that without everything bad in this world, there would be no good
    Disagree here. I think bad is what makes us more liable to recognize and appreciate good, but I don't think the reason there is good is due to the fact that bad exists.

    so I seldom look at Global Warming, Human Hunger, and War as something to fight against..I personally think that it's necessary, to keep the human population in check.
    I don't think it's necessary, so I don't subscribe to the notion of kicking back and letting things happen.

    I think about global warming and environmental stuff all the time, and it absolutely kills me. Realistically, I think most of the stuff cannot be stopped at this point, given how our world/society is currently structured, human nature, and society on a grand scale. But just because I think ultimately bad shit will happen, doesn't mean I still don't believe in the power of the individual, either. Because I really do. Things might possibly change for the better, and things might reverse, if enough people actually cared and made changes themselves. Problem is getting enough people to care.

    Hunger. Equality is an impossibility - things will never be 'fair', and there will always be a class structure. It's inevitable. And hunger as it exists today is the result of a whole slew of things. I agree human population is a huge problem, and think it does need to be checked, but I can't say I'd go so far as to say hunger is 'necessary' to keep it in check. Hunger exists, but population rises. We're not getting to the root of the problem, but the root is so entangled at this point with many other issues that we'd have to start everything from scratch, probably.

    War will always be present, given human nature, and desire of certain personalities to attain power and maintain control. Happens today, will happen in the future, was the case thousands and thousands of years ago.

    I guess one of my few philosophies is the concept of the Yin and the Yang: Bad and Good, coexisting in harmony..take away one, and the other cancels out. Know what I'm saying?
    Back to what I first said, I don't think they'd cancel each other out. I don't think taking bad away would mean good would disappear as well. But there certainly can seem to be a balance.

    Now NTs, I'd love it if you posted as well, because I want both sides to this. I'm not saying that Idealism resides in me, but when it comes to this world, I have painted my face black, as the Natives American have done, and am welcoming the end, acceptently.

    Does this contradict my NF? Do other NFs feel this way? What do you think.
    Don't know that it contradicts NF, as all NF's will probably have their own philosophy/view of the world. I personally don't really view things this way, as I can't say I'm welcoming the end at all -- I think humans suck most of the time, actually, and I get angry about a lot of it -- but it doesn't mean I welcome the 'end' with open arms, or accept any of it. Back to power of the individual, and trying to impact things you CAN impact. Obviously nearly all of us will not be able to have an impact on a grand scale though. I'm definitely an idealist in some ways, but I think I have a good dose of realism too. Throw in some rationalism, some empiricism, lol. ;-)

    Edit: and lorkan's first quote, is, well, very silly. ;-) Definitely not an accurate description of the NF's I know.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  3. #13
    in-game Gamine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneWithSoul View Post
    I don't know if I'd agree with this. I know I would never, ever, want to live forever..or even past like 80. All the sufferin..I'd just want to die.

    I think P's in general are more likely to accept things, whereas Js might need or want to manipulate there environment.

    I guess we don't see eye to eye on this matter.
    Yeah we really don't. I would never NEVER never accept a bad situation happening to me. being imposed on me. Bad things happen all the time, your character is defined by how you face those situations. This sounds like more of a "locus of control" issue than something that can be generalized by MBTI.

    Whether it's my internal value system or locus of control, I'm going to do what I can to help so-called "victims" have a safe environment to have the dialogue that is needed to define their own changes and evaluations.

    (Note: not imposing values on others)

    I firmly and absolutely believe that people, with support, communication and the introduction of responsibility (social, environmental, intellectual) as a common societal expectation can make better decisions in their daily lives to grow in the direction of self-improvement.

    Evil exists as long as we let it.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Nonsensical's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwinkleToes View Post
    Yeah we really don't. I would never NEVER never accept a bad situation happening to me. being imposed on me. Bad things happen all the time, your character is defined by how you face those situations. This sounds like more of a "locus of control" issue than something that can be generalized by MBTI.

    Whether it's my internal value system or locus of control, I'm going to do what I can to help so-called "victims" have a safe environment to have the dialogue that is needed to define their own changes and evaluations.

    (Note: not imposing values on others)

    I firmly and absolutely believe that people, with support, communication and the introduction of responsibility (social, environmental, intellectual) as a common societal expectation can make better decisions in their daily lives to grow in the direction of self-improvement.

    Evil exists as long as we let it.

    Must be my values..I seldom set my values on things of this world. My values lie in the people I love, and other than that, I hate to say, the world is the world..I am in the world, but not of it.
    Is it that by its indefiniteness it shadows forth the heartless voids and immensities of the universe, and thus stabs us from behind with the thought of annihilation, when beholding the white depths of the milky way?

  5. #15
    Senior Member Nonsensical's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascademn View Post
    Agree with this statement, because, well, it's true.



    Disagree here. I think bad is what makes us more liable to recognize and appreciate good, but I don't think the reason there is good is due to the fact that bad exists.



    I don't think it's necessary, so I don't subscribe to the notion of kicking back and letting things happen.

    I think about global warming and environmental stuff all the time, and it absolutely kills me. Realistically, I think most of the stuff cannot be stopped at this point, given how our world/society is currently structured, human nature, and society on a grand scale. But just because I think ultimately bad shit will happen, doesn't mean I still don't believe in the power of the individual, either. Because I really do. Things might possibly change for the better, and things might reverse, if enough people actually cared and made changes themselves. Problem is getting enough people to care.

    Hunger. Equality is an impossibility - things will never be 'fair', and there will always be a class structure. It's inevitable. And hunger as it exists today is the result of a whole slew of things. I agree human population is a huge problem, and think it does need to be checked, but I can't say I'd go so far as to say hunger is 'necessary' to keep it in check. Hunger exists, but population rises. We're not getting to the root of the problem, but the root is so entangled at this point with many other issues that we'd have to start everything from scratch, probably.

    War will always be present, given human nature, and desire of certain personalities to attain power and maintain control. Happens today, will happen in the future, was the case thousands and thousands of years ago.



    Back to what I first said, I don't think they'd cancel each other out. I don't think taking bad away would mean good would disappear as well. But there certainly can seem to be a balance.



    Don't know that it contradicts NF, as all NF's will probably have their own philosophy/view of the world. I personally don't really view things this way, as I can't say I'm welcoming the end at all -- I think humans suck most of the time, actually, and I get angry about a lot of it -- but it doesn't mean I welcome the 'end' with open arms, or accept any of it. Back to power of the individual, and trying to impact things you CAN impact. Obviously nearly all of us will not be able to have an impact on a grand scale though. I'm definitely an idealist in some ways, but I think I have a good dose of realism too. Throw in some rationalism, some empiricism, lol. ;-)

    Edit: and lorkan's first quote, is, well, very silly. ;-) Definitely not an accurate description of the NF's I know.
    In a sense, and now that I think of it, your right. I'd like to change what I said about the bad and the good. What I guess I ment was that, without the bad, we wouldn't be able to be as happy as we are. Think about it: if everything was good, it would just be normal..but if you add the aspect of negativity, hypothetically, you'd be able to feel more happy, when you look in perspective.
    Is it that by its indefiniteness it shadows forth the heartless voids and immensities of the universe, and thus stabs us from behind with the thought of annihilation, when beholding the white depths of the milky way?

  6. #16
    in-game Gamine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneWithSoul View Post
    Must be my values..I seldom set my values on things of this world. My values lie in the people I love, and other than that, I hate to say, the world is the world..I am in the world, but not of it.
    I find this quality incredible, it takes a lot to be able to give to those closest to you. It's something I love most about my INFP best friend, her ability to constantly give and give to her closest and most dear. She definitely has an anchoring and supporting role in my life now, and I am very grateful for it.

  7. #17
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneWithSoul View Post
    In a sense, and now that I think of it, your right. I'd like to change what I said about the bad and the good. What I guess I ment was that, without the bad, we wouldn't be able to be as happy as we are. Think about it: if everything was good, it would just be normal..but if you add the aspect of negativity, hypothetically, you'd be able to feel more happy, when you look in perspective.
    Oh, I definitely understand what you're saying, especially on an individual emotional level. Emotionally, if you were on a 'high' all of the time, it would become your new baseline, so to speak, and it would lose that specialness, perhaps. It's the very rarity of an emotion like pure joy that makes it that much more intense and meaningful. And it can be painful to come down from that high.

    But yeah, when you mentioned 'good' and 'bad' in your OP, I was taking it to mean on a larger scale, getting into human behaviors and choices and actions, etc. On a societal level - hence, my response.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

    My Photography and Watercolor Fine Art Prints!!! Cascade Colors Fine Art Prints
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  8. #18
    Senior Member Nonsensical's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwinkleToes View Post
    I find this quality incredible, it takes a lot to be able to give to those closest to you. It's something I love most about my INFP best friend, her ability to constantly give and give to her closest and most dear. She definitely has an anchoring and supporting role in my life now, and I am very grateful for it.

    Awh, well thank you for sharing that. I would rather save a single life, than save the entire world, no matter the person.
    Edit: (Although that sounds completely contradicting, I hope you know what I mean).
    Is it that by its indefiniteness it shadows forth the heartless voids and immensities of the universe, and thus stabs us from behind with the thought of annihilation, when beholding the white depths of the milky way?

  9. #19
    Senior Member Nonsensical's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascademn View Post
    Oh, I definitely understand what you're saying, especially on an individual emotional level. Emotionally, if you were on a 'high' all of the time, it would become your new baseline, so to speak, and it would lose that specialness, perhaps. It's the very rarity of an emotion like pure joy that makes it that much more intense and meaningful. And it can be painful to come down from that high.

    But yeah, when you mentioned 'good' and 'bad' in your OP, I was taking it to mean on a larger scale, getting into human behaviors and choices and actions, etc. On a societal level - hence, my response.

    And that's what life is! In a sense, you could look at life as a grey spectrum or "normal" events, with a few good things thrown in there, that make you happy. Everything else, we label as bad, because in one way or another, it works against us..but no. We're allapart of this world, so when you look at it from a personal note, theres a little good that means a lot, and the rest is just greyness..

    Sorry If I lost you there, I kind of got into it, if you know what I mean. It's an INFP thing.
    Is it that by its indefiniteness it shadows forth the heartless voids and immensities of the universe, and thus stabs us from behind with the thought of annihilation, when beholding the white depths of the milky way?

  10. #20
    Senior Member Nonsensical's Avatar
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    Wow, this has really altered some of my veiws..thanks guys!
    Is it that by its indefiniteness it shadows forth the heartless voids and immensities of the universe, and thus stabs us from behind with the thought of annihilation, when beholding the white depths of the milky way?

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