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  1. #111
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chatoyer View Post
    Ooh, ouch! But very INTP of you! Good demonstration.




    It's not bad, it's just not ideal, you're talking to a bunch of idealists! We revel in subtlety, flights of imagination, unpredictability in the area of romance, come on! Why be so reactive? What do you want from me, unhampered by my request?
    Yeah, hehe, it need not make any sense! Its just a matter of feel! Lets relish in unpredictability! Today, I adore you, tomorrow you are the anti-christ. Hehe, this is subtlety my friend! Who could possibly be hurt by such a seemingly innocent and a precious thing! Hehhe! We're idealists aint we!? Why be so reactive, hehehehe, what do you want from me, I have a feel and that is it! So just trust the feel and be quite, dont expect me to make any sense! Relish in the subtlety, relish in the flights of imagination! As Neo from the Matrix said "In this world anything is possible" or as many propagandists of motivational speaking asserted "If you can imagine it you can do it!" So whats wrong, just trust the feel!

    Dont you bother thinking about what the situation really is like (communicating directly isnt ideal remember, to hell with not ideal, its completely useless), just relish in your imagination and the unpreictability of romantic nuance!

    Anything could be! Forget about letting the other person know what you are all about or what the relationship is like, we are idealistic romantic-dreamers! Its anything that we want! Anything that we feel like doing! And dont you dare force us into the straight answer! Dont you dare spoil our precious mood with your insipid exhortations for directness and making sense of things! Dont you dare threaten the sacred volatility of feelings, this moment I feel this way the next moment I will feel another way, thats the unpredictability of romance you should relish in!

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Summary: This whole appeal to romantic unpredictability and nuance of feeling is just an attempt by Fs to deny responsibility for their actions. Or quite simply they refuse to communicate directly because they simply wish to do whatever they feel like doing. Only communicating directly will make their position clear. Only if their position is clear could they be held accountable for it. If its not clear, there is nothing that is stopping them from acting like children or simply using Feeling excessively, or in other words in that case there is nothing stopping them from acting on whim, appeasing every last vulgar impulse of theirs.

    93JC is absolutely right, direct and reasonable communication should be absolutely vouched for. That is the case because it is an ethical truism that people should accept responsibility for their actions, there is no reason at all why Fs should be exampt from such an obligation.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  2. #112
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Reading responses to "The wastebasket sure is full" game put me in mind of a place I onced worked where a group of staff members attempted that with me in the break room, having a conversation among themselves which was obviously pointed in my direction. It felt as though they were trying to pressure me into saying, "I'll do it."

    I responded by not responding. Just kept reading my newspaper while they kept upping the ante.

    The end result was mutual antipathy. That's what seems to happen if you choose to play the passive-aggressive game. It's a no-win situation, I think. And it lasts for considerably longer than is necessary over such a piddling matter. Bleeds over into other, more important matters. Stonewalling. Two parties dead-ended.

    If I had it to do over I would have asked if they were hoping that I would volunteer. Then I would have said why, or why not, I was able to meet that request.

    I like to encourage honest communication between people. It still may produuce resentment but I don't think it's as deep or long-lasting as those underground currents which predominate when neither side is being honest.

    Passive-aggression seems to fuel our current culture and I believe is the cause of a lot of dysfunction which our society seems to be jam-cram full of these days.

    Edit: Had a thought about my mother who is entering into the final stages of Alzheimer's. She finds it impossiple to be direct about her thoughts and feelings/needs. It's very frustrating.

    I think her total dependence on others is frightening to her. So, instead of saying "No, I can't." to a request, she fabricates elaborate excuses which hold no water. What's under it? My guess is fear of showing her disability, fear of others becoming angry with her. At this point is is no longer possible to explain to her why a simple refusal would produce less frustration in me. But I would, in any situatiton with any person, rather hear a simple, "No." than any other kind of disingenous unspoken or spoken response.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  3. #113
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Oh, wow, Anja, that kind of passive-aggressive hinting would drive me nuts. I'm glad you didn't play into their hands. And that feels like some sort of weird social experiment directed at you personally. Shades of junior high. Ick.
    Something Witty

  4. #114
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Oh, wow, Anja, that kind of passive-aggressive hinting would drive me nuts. I'm glad you didn't play into their hands. And that feels like some sort of weird social experiment directed at you personally. Shades of junior high. Ick.
    Weirder yet? They were all mental health professionals! I quit that job after three years. Crazy patients are a job. Crazy staff is an absurdity.

    My point? With the tools I have today I think I could have handled it better.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  5. #115
    sophiloist Kaizer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    Weirder yet? They were all mental health professionals! I quit that job after three years. Crazy patients are a job. Crazy staff is an absurdity.

    My point? With the tools I have today I think I could have handled it better.
    They were lucky you weren't an adolescent INTP or else who knows you might've presented each one of em a book on psych/type theory etc. or maybe just copies of the relevant chapter/pages

  6. #116
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaizer View Post
    They were lucky you weren't an adolescent INTP or else who knows you might've presented each one of em a book on psych/type theory etc. or maybe just copies of the relevant chapter/pages
    I actually considered doing this, printing out an INTP profile for my SO to put in her stocking for christmas. I ultimately decided against it.

    Sort of like a...JocktheMotie handbook.



  7. #117
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    I'll be honest. When I have that attitude toward others, it's because they're more invested in me than I am in them, and I don't really have the energy to expend on trying to do things exactly the way they want them. INTPs really are all about energy conservation, so we can have more time to live in our heads. If I'm really captivated by someone or really invested, I'll make a lot of effort in the relationship. People, in general, just don't fascinate us very often. Sometimes I can like a person just fine, and even enjoy their company, but when they start making a lot of demands of me, it becomes more of a hassle than it's worth.
    +1

    Also, I don't think INTPs are in the habit of demanding other people adjust - It's more common that we do not want to adjust to other people, and certainly not on their suggestion. I see that is enough of an offense to some.

    This description was right on:
    "This is the way I am, just trying to give you fair warning, get out now if you expect wholesale change."
    hoarding time and space
    A single event can awaken within us a stranger totally unknown to us. To live is to be slowly born.
    — Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  8. #118
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    I actually considered doing this, printing out an INTP profile for my SO to put in her stocking for christmas. I ultimately decided against it.

    Sort of like a...JocktheMotie handbook.
    That would have been soveryvery welcome!
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  9. #119
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Well, I actually don't think that's why most people do it. I think they probably think that it's more respectful or polite to hint around or vaguely suggest, rather than outright asking. Particularly if they're afraid of being seen as a nag or causing a confrontation. And who knows, they might think, knowing how INTPs can be, that we might see being asked directly to do it as them telling us what to do--which they know we'll hate. I really think it's just a difference in styles, though I'm sure some are actively trying to manipulate.
    I don't think so either, but I don't think people always know why they do it.

    I find a particular problem with those exhibiting unhealthy enneagram "2" behaviour:
    In the average to unhealthy Levels, Twos present a false image of being completely generous and unselfish and of not wanting any kind of pay-off for themselves, when in fact, they can have enormous expectations and unacknowledged emotional needs.

    Average to unhealthy Twos seek validation of their worth by obeying their superegos demands to sacrifice themselves for others. They believe they must always put others first and be loving and unselfish if they want to get love. The problem is that putting others first makes Twos secretly angry and resentful, feelings they work hard to repress or deny. Nevertheless, they eventually erupt in various ways, disrupting Twos relationships and revealing the inauthenticity of many of the average to unhealthy Twos claims about themselves and the depth of their love.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  10. #120
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    That would have been soveryvery welcome!
    Hmm...maybe I'll reconsider then!



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