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  1. #101
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I think INJs like to believe that people don't get them or understand them or purposely try to shroud themselves in a mysterious aura so they can then later claim that they weren't understood and absolve themselves of any role they played in the lack of understanding.

    I don't know if I want to have sustained contact with a person who is or believes themselves to be complex, because you know, they complicate things. They have a tendency to make things harder than what they have to be. That seems like something that should only be reserved in describing the universe which is requisitely complex. Complex people come with a rather tedious user's manual that needs to be taken to expensive specialty shops when they break. When people describe themselves as complex it's usually a euphemism for troubled and difficult to deal with. Can you be both complex and simple at the same time?

    10^1 I can wrap my head around but when you get to 10^100 I just can't do that in my head. It's too big. Are you INFJs saying you're 10^100? You've got so many zero's behind you that you defy understanding? OK I'm confusing myself.
    Maybe you confuse your inability to see complexity with the absence of complexity? If someone was actually more complex than you could understand, how would you know?
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  2. #102
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    Maybe you confuse your inability to see complexity with the absence of complexity? If someone was actually more complex than you could understand, how would you know?
    I don't believe the INFJ personality is more complex than say the ESTP personality. That's what I'm finding a little repugnant about this thread. I can understand that some people have more complex psychology than others, but it's not due to being XXXX personality type. Being less common does lead to lack of understanding, but that doesn't necessarily translate to more complex. It just means it hasn't been studied yet. Once you start learning or being exposed to a person's psyche what was once stupefying becomes comprehensible.

    I can recognize when I'm over my head when dealing with another person's mind, but being more complex? No, I don't think so. I'm sure I leave some people scratching their heads, but it certainly doesn't mean I'm more complex.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
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  3. #103
    Senior Member Silent Stars's Avatar
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    We most certainly aren't fooling ourselves when we say things along those lines. But...purposely making ourselves mysterious? Honestly, that whole train of thought in your first paragraph is really immature (of your post that Synarch quoted), and I think it would be the rare exception for any of us to follow it, rather than the rule.
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  4. #104
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Even though I don't really like thinking this way, I'm gonna agree with the OP.

  5. #105
    Senior Member Kestrel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I don't know if I want to have sustained contact with a person who is or believes themselves to be complex, because you know, they complicate things. They have a tendency to make things harder than what they have to be. That seems like something that should only be reserved in describing the universe which is requisitely complex. Complex people come with a rather tedious user's manual that needs to be taken to expensive specialty shops when they break. When people describe themselves as complex it's usually a euphemism for troubled and difficult to deal with. Can you be both complex and simple at the same time?
    This is a paradox I can identify with. I'm complicated on the inside, but not so complicated in my dealings with other people. I don't really expect people to understand me, but I also don't expect people to misunderstand me either. I take things as they come, these days.

    I don't like being "dark and mysterious". But I find it insanely difficult to go around sharing things about myself to just anyone; only to people who really want to know.

    But there are some people in my life who "get" me. I think some types just have a harder time understanding INFJs than other types. Like my Si dominant dad does understand me to a degree, but some things will always be "lost in translation".

    But hey, there seems to be a fair amount of people on this board that do understand INFJs to a surprising degree. So there's always hope.
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  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I don't believe the INFJ personality is more complex than say the ESTP personality. That's what I'm finding a little repugnant about this thread. I can understand that some people have more complex psychology than others, but it's not due to being XXXX personality type. Being less common does lead to lack of understanding, but that doesn't necessarily translate to more complex. It just means it hasn't been studied yet. Once you start learning or being exposed to a person's psyche what was once stupefying becomes comprehensible.

    I can recognize when I'm over my head when dealing with another person's mind, but being more complex? No, I don't think so. I'm sure I leave some people scratching their heads, but it certainly doesn't mean I'm more complex.

    hmmm well I wouldn't have even approached it from 'I am more complex' than others. (Though funny enough, that is often the word people use to describe me. Even my own sister. It's not usually said in the good way.) INFJ are very layered and convoluted in their style of personality and not easily accessible. We know this is also down to us as well as others. Feeling and actually being misunderstood either completely or just by a few shades (both situations being pretty intolerable to INFJ) is a fact of life for INFJ. I think Penelope had tried to get her point across - which was simply that she had noticed a pattern in her relationships and wondered if it happened with other INFJ. And there are all kinds of misunderstandings.... but not from the other INFJ. Immediate recognition from other INFJ. Immediate understanding that it was a subject she wanted to explore without ego entering into it at all.

    That kind of recognition is really nice and I guess that is what Penelope was commenting on. Because it's not what happens out in the real world. Perhaps that is down to INFJ being affiliative and fairly cooperative when exploring arguments as a type, esp with other INFJ.... if there were INFJs who really disagreed they may not have posted?

    Anyway, apart from everything else, the OP stuff really does happen... I know CC has also mentioned that this has happened with her too. It's been interesting to discuss. (Heading out now, back later.)

  7. #107
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I think INJs like to believe that people don't get them or understand them

    I don't know if I want to have sustained contact with a person who is or believes themselves to be complex, because you know, they complicate things. They have a tendency to make things harder than what they have to be. .......... Complex people come with a rather tedious user's manual that needs to be taken to expensive specialty shops when they break. When people describe themselves as complex it's usually a euphemism for troubled and difficult to deal with. Can you be both complex and simple at the same time?
    Actually I think there's some truth to this.

    Now, my INFJ friends definitely understand me quickly, and I don't really have to do a lot of explaining, but that's just because they speak the same 'language'. However, I also have a TJ friend who 'gets me', an ENFJ I used to know did as well, a couple of ENFP's, INTP's don't seem to have too much of a problem, an ISFJ friend understands me well, and an ENTP friend quite easily and readily understands me, so...it's not solely a type thing.

    My perception of myself tends to be tied to my overall mood/place in life. There have been times in my past when I've felt completely alone, misunderstood, 'different' from everyone else, more cynical, completely caught up in an internal analytical loop, and defective -- too 'complex', too X or Y or Z, to be accepted or understood by anyone. But as a direct result of this self-perception, I then *became* more isolated. I believed it was the case, and so that belief impacted how I approached people, relationships, etc. I probably approached others with preconceived notions of how they'd react, and was probably more in defense mode, and also definitely lacked confidence. And, putting the blame on others for not understanding -- well, that's a piece of it, but the other part lies in myself, and my ability to communicate in a way that can be understood by others. So in my case much of it was a self-perpetuating thing. If I thought I would be misunderstood, well, there was a good chance I would be. Or I'd perceive others in that way. Because I looked at the world through that lens.

    As to the OP, I don't know. I've never had anyone come back to me or say that. But I like to think they think that. ;-)
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  8. #108
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
    This is a paradox I can identify with. I'm complicated on the inside, but not so complicated in my dealings with other people. I don't really expect people to understand me, but I also don't expect people to misunderstand me either. I take things as they come, these days.
    So I ask, who isn't complicated on the inside? This whole forum is teaming with people saying how complicated they are! When you start digging into the subterranean depths of another person your GPS is going to lose satellite reception at some point. Maps will be useless. Maybe it happens faster for some people than others, I understand that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
    I don't like being "dark and mysterious". But I find it insanely difficult to go around sharing things about myself to just anyone; only to people who really want to know.
    So do I. Well if you mean sharing what my deepest fears, what makes me tick, why I do what I do, then no I don't do that. If you mean, what I'm going to do over the weekend or even what my New Year's Resolutions are then yeah, I'll share that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
    But there are some people in my life who "get" me. I think some types just have a harder time understanding INFJs than other types. Like my Si dominant dad does understand me to a degree, but some things will always be "lost in translation".

    But hey, there seems to be a fair amount of people on this board that do understand INFJs to a surprising degree. So there's always hope.
    I agree with this. What I'm saying is do you get your ISJ dad totally and completely, while he only get's some of you? The idea that I'm resisting in this thread is the one where INFJs have greater than average understanding of the people the get intimate with while the other person is clueless. If the INFJ did have such great understanding wouldn't they have comprehended beforehand the other person's limited in their ability to understand them? If I knew that I would've been more cautious in opening up to them.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  9. #109
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    So I ask, who isn't complicated on the inside? This whole forum is teaming with people saying how complicated they are! When you start digging into the subterranean depths of another person your GPS is going to lose satellite reception at some point. Maps will be useless. Maybe it happens faster for some people than others, I understand that.
    Eh, I don't think anyone's really that complicated. People's motivations always boil down to the same emotional primitives.

    I think when people say "complicated", they really just mean non-normative.

  10. #110
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by penelope View Post
    Hooray INFJs! I'm so glad you guys are coming around. It really further proves that only INFJs get other INFJs... whew.
    Where in there does it say that INFJs believe they are more complex than others? Complexity might not be the issue. It might be something else.

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