[MBTI General] NFJ's superior?

[erm]

After reading some website's article on a MB society where INFP's ruled all and progressively downwards you had each other types position, until you reached INT's at the bottom (pretty sure it was a joke), I couldn't help but think, which type would be the best at ruling others?

So my mind conjured the three best fictional leaders that came to mind, Dumbledore, Gandalf and Moiraine, from HP, LOTR and WoT. There were other's but they become more and more unheard of.

So the next step, to type these three, all INFJ's in my mind. Then to back this up, i thought of all the definite INFJ's i've talked to and i thought they were all amazing in the same, but more subtle a way, as those three.

I then typed my favourite (fictional again) heroes, and they were all ENFJ's.

While i believe all types are equal, after checking the NFJ descriptions part of me is now convinced that NFJ's are the best. Even though i'm sure type has nothing to do with how good a person you are.

Anyway i'm sure i'm wrong, missing something obvious or making a fool of myself, but what do you non-NFJ's think of them and what do NFJ's think of themselves?

Also what are NFJ's you know like?.

Thanks, and i'm sorry for being crap at this. Oh and i'm well aware that little of my thought process was based in reality, I just want to know what NFJ's are like.

 

[Totenkindly]

So my mind conjured the three best fictional leaders that came to mind, Dumbledore, Gandalf and Moiraine, from HP, LOTR and WoT. There were other's but they become more and more unheard of.

So the next step, to type these three, all INFJ's in my mind.

I disagree strongly about Gandalf (INTx). He's very detached and shows Te, not Fe. I don't know the others well enough to comment, however.

Sorry to throw in a wrench so early, please continue.

 

[proteanmix]

Muhahahahhahahaha!!!!

 

[runvardh]

I disagree strongly about Gandalf (INTx). He's very detached and shows Te, not Fe. I don't know the others well enough to comment, however.

Sorry to throw in a wrench so early, please continue.

By what you are saying he'd then seem like a well socialized INTJ.

 

[The Ü™]

I think Gandalf is more ENTJ.

 

[erm]

I disagree strongly about Gandalf (INTx). He's very detached and shows Te, not Fe. I don't know the others well enough to comment, however.

Sorry to throw in a wrench so early, please continue.

Hmmm, maybe, he's the one I know least of so i can't really say.

You're probably right though now i think about it, he predicts things on a large scale and shows more force when influencing someone, whereas Dumbledore and Moiraine are best at predicting what individuals will do and are very good at manipulating people in a subtle way.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

After reading some website's article on a MB society where INFP's ruled all and progressively downwards you had each other types position, until you reached INT's at the bottom (pretty sure it was a joke), I couldn't help but think, which type would be the best at ruling others?...

Anyway i'm sure i'm wrong, missing something obvious or making a fool of myself, but what do you non-NFJ's think of them and what do NFJ's think of themselves?

I've been in a number of leadership positions and enjoy it, but I would have to say that imo an ENTJ is especially well suited to leadership. Of course leadership is not just one thing. It depends largely on who is being led and why. There are scenarios when different types would succeed. For example, on the battlefield, an EST- would have an incredible advantage over any NF. For humanitarian efforts NFJs can certainly organize people, inspire with poignant language, and make something happen. To lead small children -F-Ps have a certain advantage in understanding the children and being ready for their spontaneous needs. One more aspect of leadership worth mentioning, you have to be able to take a TON of crap from people. Constant whining, complaining, second guessing, mud-slinging. Because of that I can't do it long-term or it makes me sick. T's will always have an advantage in that regard. As a general, sweeping statement, NFs work exceptionally well as high ranking support for a leader, and/or for leading smaller groups to specific humanitarian type goals.

In a word, a leader needs to be able to represent the thinking, needs, and goals of those they lead. For leading a large, faceless mass, you do need an abstract thinker who thinks long-term, can organize and devise effective systems and put them into practice. ENTJ works rather well for that imo.

 

[cafe]

Maybe I'm not an NFJ, but I could not sacrifice the people I love for The Greater Good.

 

[Totenkindly]

Maybe I'm not an NFJ, but I could not sacrifice the people I love for The Greater Good.

I could see an NFJ sacrificing themselves for the Greater Good, but I can't see them ever sacrificing those who have been entrusted to them. They are VERY likely to try to bear the entire cost themselves.

NTJs are much more likely to be able to make those types of sacrifices, even if it would still hurt them.

Honestly, I really see the "leadership" thing as dependent upon context: The sort of leadership required, the type of organization, what goals need to be met.

If we are talking purely the "stereotypical" leader type, though, as what Toonia is describing in her post, the "best" leader seems to me to be an ExTJ. NFs can lead in certain contexts, usually more involving keeping an organization synced into its primary mission (the heart and soul of the endeavor), but so often leadership seems to involve a lot of craptastic Te work, and that sort of thing can be very wearing on NFs, with their desire to personally connect with people and create meaning... not just impersonal progress towards a goal.

 

[erm]

I've been in a number of leadership positions and enjoy it, but I would have to say that imo an ENTJ is especially well suited to leadership. Of course leadership is not just one thing. It depends largely on who is being led and why. There are scenarios when different types would succeed. For example, on the battlefield, an EST- would have an incredible advantage over any NF. For humanitarian efforts NFJs can certainly organize people, inspire with poignant language, and make something happen. To lead small children -F-Ps have a certain advantage in understanding the children and being ready for their spontaneous needs. One more aspect of leadership worth mentioning, you have to be able to take a TON of crap from people. Constant whining, complaining, second guessing, mud-slinging. Because of that I can't do it long-term or it makes me sick. T's will always have an advantage in that regard. As a general, sweeping statement, NFs work exceptionally well as high ranking support for a leader, and/or for leading smaller groups to specific humanitarian type goals.

In a word, a leader needs to be able to represent the thinking, needs, and goals of those they lead. For leading a large, faceless mass, you do need an abstract thinker who thinks long-term, can organize and devise effective systems and put them into practice. ENTJ works rather well for that imo.

The fact that you so precisely and correctly identified why NFJ's aren't superior leaders just convinces me more and more that NFJ's are superior in general

From one problem to another . Unless I'm right, doubtful though

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

If we are talking purely the "stereotypical" leader type, though, as what Toonia is describing in her post, the "best" leader seems to me to be an ExTJ. NFs can lead in certain contexts, usually more involving keeping an organization synced into its primary mission (the heart and soul of the endeavor), but so often leadership seems to involve a lot of craptastic Te work, and that sort of thing can be very wearing on NFs, with their desire to personally connect with people and create meaning... not just impersonal progress towards a goal.

Yeah, i agree with this and had one other thought. Leading typically involves starting with a cynical group of people who don't trust you, expects failure, complains, are unmotivated, feeding off of each other's negativity, etc. What personality type is best suited to deal with that and convert them to the leader's way of thinking? It is no easy task. I have done exactly that a few times in my life but it depletes my very soul. There isn't a way for me to sustain it or i do get physically sick. A person who can disregard negative emotions, yet understand what is needed to inspire people to new thinking, is the one who will succeed. It also takes a lot of outward energy to lead. The communication part tends to require that you exude a power of ten more energy than you expect to draw from the people until you can get them feeding off each other's energy. It's like social inertia.

If i had to pick the one trait that best describes a leader, it would be good judgment. This tends to require impartiality.

 

[erm]

I could see an NFJ sacrificing themselves for the Greater Good, but I can't see them ever sacrificing those who have been entrusted to them. They are VERY likely to try to bear the entire cost themselves.

NTJs are much more likely to be able to make those types of sacrifices, even if it would still hurt them.

Honestly, I really see the "leadership" thing as dependent upon context: The sort of leadership required, the type of organization, what goals need to be met.

If we are talking purely the "stereotypical" leader type, though, as what Toonia is describing in her post, the "best" leader seems to me to be an ExTJ. NFs can lead in certain contexts, usually more involving keeping an organization synced into its primary mission (the heart and soul of the endeavor), but so often leadership seems to involve a lot of craptastic Te work, and that sort of thing can be very wearing on NFs, with their desire to personally connect with people and create meaning... not just impersonal progress towards a goal.

I see that i missed something big.

But i could still be "who is the best leader in the most situations?" or "who would you put as leader if you knew a random scenario was going to occur?", maybe an ENTJ like it says in most descriptions, but i still think ENFJ might be a match.

a cynical group of people who don't trust you, expects failure, complains, are unmotivated, feeding off of each other's negativity, etc.

A bunch of INTP's then (had to say it)

I would pick someone who used to be like they did but got inspired or something by a partner or friend, to lead them. Basically someone who feels the same way and has the experience of getting past it. They would also need the natural desire help them, which i thought would come from Fe like INFJ's.

 

[ptgatsby]

The fact that you so precisely and correctly identified why NFJ's aren't superior leaders just convinces me more and more that NFJ's are superior in general

Though it may not represent leadership across the board, INTJs are the most over-represented leadership type, followed by ENTJs. (roughly 3-5x and 2-4x respectively). xNFJs are under represented by 0.3 to 0.1 or so.... that makes the gap between them... well... gigantic.

Between SFs and NFs, NFs are more represented. Between NFPs and NFJs, NFPs are actually more represented. (This is at the "upper management" and above level.)

 

[Totenkindly]

I have done exactly that a few times in my life but it depletes my very soul. There isn't a way for me to sustain it or i do get physically sick.

I know, it can be very exhausting and can easily cause so much stress as to erode one's body.

A person who can disregard negative emotions, yet understand what is needed to inspire people to new thinking, is the one who will succeed. It also takes a lot of outward energy to lead. The communication part tends to require that you exude a power of ten more energy than you expect to draw from the people until you can get them feeding off each other's energy. It's like social inertia.

Possibly an ENFJ who can keep things in perspective could develop this ability, out of all the NFs. They also keep their focus. When I see ENFP leaders, they have trouble with discipline and planning; they usually just trust their boundless store of energy to carry them through, then find themselves angry and/or depressed at how people are or are not responding...

Gandhi, typically typed as INFJ, was a good leader in the sense of setting a "perfect moral" example that others could then follow. The skill is less about controlling and wielding others, more about setting the bar and thus a picture that people can emulate.

The INFP leaders I've seen tend to do best in small groups. The ones who develop their inferior (Te) do best, that's an invaluable skill for them to have in regards to getting tasks accomplished. Where they excel is making each person on their team feel understood and their needs acknowledged.

If i had to pick the one trait that best describes a leader, it would be good judgment. This tends to require impartiality.

The one time I was in a long term leadership position, I could handle the strategic part well enough (what should the group be? What should we work on? What skills do we have? What outcomes are possible? What are the abstract goals and strategic principles the group should have, to be successful?) ... but it was SO exhausting for me. I just could not keep up with the Te: Planning music lists for practices, determining how to deal with people who failed in keeping their responsibilities, running the actual practice, determining the specifics of how a song should be played, and so on.

Oh, I HATED it.... and I was so happy when someone else picked that up.

So even a good strategist doesn't necessarily make a good 'leader' if the main tasks involved are all external and concrete ones.

 

[Brendan]

After reading some website's article on a MB society where INFP's ruled all and progressively downwards you had each other types position, until you reached INT's at the bottom (pretty sure it was a joke), I couldn't help but think, which type would be the best at ruling others?

So my mind conjured the three best fictional leaders that came to mind, Dumbledore, Gandalf and Moiraine, from HP, LOTR and WoT. There were other's but they become more and more unheard of.

So the next step, to type these three, all INFJ's in my mind.

Personally, I think Dumbledore was an ENFJ. Real life ENFJ's would include possibly Abraham Lincoln and definitely Ronald Reagan, all three of whom make excellent leaders.

...

 

[erm]

Leadership wasn't really the purpose of this thread just how the thought occurred to me, my idea was that NFJ's have more of a purpose and are better at following through with them, and this in my books would make them superior, if true (i also think they are naturally intelligent and competent). I wanted to here peoples experience of NFJ's and for NFJ's of themselves.

Don't mind people talking about leadership, but was hoping for some responses.

Personally, I think Dumbledore was an ENFJ. Real life ENFJ's would include possibly Abraham Lincoln and definitely Ronald Reagan, all three of whom make excellent leaders.

...

I can't see where the E comes from, if he took a test i reckon he'd come out as INFJ, maybe not strong I but he spends most awake time alone and seems to like that.

 

[runvardh]

I think Gandalf is more ENTJ.

I was half thinking about that type too, you may very well be right.

 

[Totenkindly]

Leadership wasn't really the purpose of this thread just how the thought occurred to me, my idea was that NFJ's have more of a purpose and are better at following through with them, and this in my books would make them superior, if true (i also think they are naturally intelligent and competent). I wanted to here peoples experience of NFJ's and for NFJ's of themselves.

Don't mind people talking about leadership, but was hoping for some responses.

You asked for comments about "ruling others." That sounds like leadership, does it not? I am not sure what you're asking for. If you could be more specific, that would help.

My one experience with an ENFJ in a leadership position was that he was very good at setting a vision, doing things by group consensus, inspiring people's passion, doing a lot of the actual detail work and Te stuff, and getting everyone involved.

Unfortunately, the entire endeavor failed because he was not good at strategic marketing, or of separating an "idea HE liked" from an "idea that had a chance to succeed," or of when to take one person's opinion over another. In the end, he refused to change his vision, even when it was clear his vision needed to be changed (based on actual customer surveys and needs analysis) in order to meet the market.

I am not sure what you mean by referring to the "best" either. The best at WHAT exactly? No type is the BEST at everything. They all have flaws. You should qualify what you mean a bit better, to help focus the answers people are offering.

 

[heart]

Maybe I'm not an NFJ, but I could not sacrifice the people I love for The Greater Good.

Me neither, but then I am not hungry for leadership or fame either.

 

[erm]

You asked for comments about "ruling others." That sounds like leadership, does it not? I am not sure what you're asking for. If you could be more specific, that would help.

My one experience with an ENFJ in a leadership position was that he was very good at setting a vision, doing things by group consensus, inspiring people's passion, doing a lot of the actual detail work and Te stuff, and getting everyone involved.

Unfortunately, the entire endeavor failed because he was not good at strategic marketing, or of separating an "idea HE liked" from an "idea that had a chance to succeed," or of when to take one person's opinion over another. In the end, he refused to change his vision, even when it was clear his vision needed to be changed (based on actual customer surveys and needs analysis) in order to meet the market.

I am not sure what you mean by referring to the "best" either. The best at WHAT exactly? No type is the BEST at everything. They all have flaws. You should qualify what you mean a bit better, to help focus the answers people are offering.

Well the bold underlined sections where the only part anyone had to read to answer my question.

Your description of that particular ENFJ is what i imagined them to be like, highly motivated, inspiring, imaginitive and loyal. But they often take these traits to far and turn them into what most people see as weaknesses.

I knew using the words best and superior would be a bad idea! I know they need to be clarified, i was just hoping people would run by their instincts on what best means, like when you say negative, positive, constructive and destructive, all need to be clarified to what purpose but no one ever does. Scrap that though. Descriptions on NFJ's and what it's like to be one is all i want. Any ideas or insight around NFJ's would be nice too, talk about what you will though.