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  1. #11
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    There is the other side too.

    That Fe is directive--and I guess a lot of times goal-oriented--is unnerving, but it does also mean there will be a lot of times when it is direct, straight-forward and honest. Fe seeks a kind of objectivity (I read), so I'm guessing that there are times when someone will need to hear they look fat in those pants, and Fe will both say so and be there to support the result.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    I am pretty sure that this is because you don't want to hurt peoples feelings.

    If a large person asks : Do I look fat in this pants ?

    Answer

    ENFJ: Not exactlly, this detail here does not look good to but you will be alright.


    INTJ: No, this pants don't make you look fat, you look fat because you are fat. (if INTJ is not wearing a mask)


    This are simplified answers.
    Yea,I think ENFJs don't want to hurt others feeling.

  3. #13
    Senior Member chris1207's Avatar
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    I don't see what's wrong with not being direct. Just cuz you don't give a crap about people saying personal about you INTJ's doesn't mean that everyone's a robot. I wouldn't be surprised if INTJ's have lost out on job opportunities because they don't understand how to handle people.

    To the INFP talking about the ENFJ not getting with her: I can relate to the ENFJ. Maybe he really, really liked you and was afraid of rejection. I have no problem interacting with an attractive chick if I don't like her but man one I do start liking her it's like a switch. I suddenly become very timid and short of words. Oh well.
    "... you think deeply about stuff [that] nobody cares about and hardly anybody can understand you." ~ Peguy talking about Ni users. So true.

  4. #14
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    The deal for INTJs is we thrive on real input.

    Any piece of information we care to come across goes into the robot brain--it's as big as a planet--and gets processed. The information gets run through the intuition jumpers, the Te advisors, the whole memory system, the works. The system is looking for the right place for that information.

    Be indirect, and you throw off the system.

    And the system checks itself a lot. A very lot. A lottie lot. A disturbance in The Force does not go unnoticed. We use inductive logic to be as smart as we are, and an inductive system isn't shit if the inductive base--every damn thing you know--isn't coherent. So we check it. A lot.

    In other words... be indirect and you're fucking with the INTJ in front of you. What feelings do you spare by being indirect then?


    And INTJs would have no honour if INTJs hadn't lost jobs for not knowing how to handle people. Handling people isn't what we're meant to do.

  5. #15
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    So I've been thinking about this, am I direct or not. A situation that just happened today may contain a clue.

    One of my male friends is thinking about making a move on one of his old coworkers. He's in grad school and comes home every couple of months or so. Whenever he comes home he always invites me and the other woman out some place. I know he likes her and I think she likes him as well, so the last two weekends I've bailed on him when he's asked if I want to go or not because I don't want to be an interloper.

    Will I tell him why I don't want to be with him and his possible boo? No probably not. I don't know if that counts as indirect because bailing is working for now and if it ain't broke why fix it. My reasons for not wanting to go are psychological and easy to deny, specifically I'm getting the feeling that he's playing both ends against the middle and I don't know why he keeps inviting me out with him and this woman. So my first line of defense it to opt out because all I have is a hunch and there's no use in mentioning it right now.

    So my (in)directness is based on how receptive I feel the victim will be and how correct I feel I am. I'd like to think I'm pretty good at gauging possible reactions to what I'm saying and if I feel like something I have to say will be ill-received I'll try to figure out a way to put it to out there that yes, may come off as indirect. I guess I'd be an iron fist in a velvet glove, but do you really want the glove off? No, I wouldn't tell someone their ass was fat in a certain outfit, I'd say it wasn't flattering and suggest alternatives. I also notice it's mostly Ts saying ENFJs are indirect, so maybe there's are skew here?

    When I'm dealing with a person who I feel I can be that level of honest with and won't get all pouty I'm all for it. I prefer to be a plain dealer with people, but I don't want to flay anyone.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  6. #16
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    INTJ would say, there's a guy who won't do better because he's dumb enough to think he's being clever.

    If someone were using me as a smokescreen to get at a friend of mine, as soon as I got the chance--like literally as soon as intuition told me something--I'd uber-totally-not-casually-at-all say, "So-o-o-o... you, him, mm, mm, right?" And then I'd listen to whatever was said next. (I probably wouldn't listen for too long though--the purpose of bringing up the topic at all would have been only to get this third person to start dealing directly with my friend himself.)

    Call it a concern for the truth, call it disinterest in people stuff, call it an introvert's lack of networking energy, but I find the "Hey, look! A dirty secret!" approach much more appealing than the long, circuitous human harmony management approach.

    You guys are indirect. You can afford to be. You have good goals in mind and the energy (and interest) to see the game play out. INTJs by contrast are saving their strength for other stuff.


    I honestly believe I'd prefer to be flayed than misdirected. I was advising an ENFP once. He was trying to work out how much to tell a nice INTJ girl about what he had been up to when they weren't together. I told him, don't manage her, tell her what you know, you're probably going to be really surprised what hurts an INTJ and what doesn't.

    Bravado? Dunno. ENFJs, you are the people lovers/managers. Am I being too brave with my future flayed self when I set about asking other people to be direct?


    EDIT: I'm guessing here, but I think the thing makes you say you like direct is, when you decide the moment calls for it and you think it's right, you like jumping right in and doing something.

  7. #17
    Senior Member The Third Rider's Avatar
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    I guess I am a paradox, sometimes I am indirect and sometimes I am too direct with things I say. I can never figure myself out.
    ENFJ 3W4

    If you read this I am sorry to say that you just lost 5 seconds of your life that you wont be getting back.*

    *Actual time may vary.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Be indirect, and you throw off the system.

    And the system checks itself a lot. A very lot. A lottie lot. A disturbance in The Force does not go unnoticed. We use inductive logic to be as smart as we are, and an inductive system isn't shit if the inductive base--every damn thing you know--isn't coherent. So we check it. A lot.
    Yes. Succinctly explained.

  9. #19
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    I think ,ENFJs ,because they are Js,so they choose to be indirect or direct. That's to say,they are very direct only when they feel safe and right, they judged.
    Otherwise,they will show the indirect way to you ,a way of protecting themselves.
    But sometimes they did it maybe because they don't want to hurt other's feeling.
    Maybe to an INTJ, it is useless,because they use feeling less.

  10. #20
    Senior Member mlittrell's Avatar
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    half i know play passive/aggressive and the other half are actually pretty forward
    "Honest differences are often a healthy sign of progress. "

    "You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty."

    "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

    Mahatma Gandhi

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