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[NF] NFs and feelings of other people

SolitaryWalker

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To be clear, I wasn't at all trying to generalize to all ENFPs. My ENFP best friend is incredibly empathetic, and is probably the "best" person I know. Most healthy ENFPs are amazing people.

I was just trying to make clear that not all members of a type are the same. This girl happens to have NPD...I think she likes me as much as she can like a person; she's not angry at me at all, she just sees me as a tool in her grandiose plans instead of a person of equal value. Honestly, it barely even upsets me at this point -- I think of her more as a force of nature -- I can't really change her.

My thoughts on her are far from invalid, though. It's not that I can't understand her. I can actually understand her incredibly well. For this reason, she trusts me more than almost anyone else -- I know how to speak her language in her terms, and can have a more useful conversation with her than almost anyone else (she mostly just blows off everyone).

Anyway, just an example of an NF who literally doesn't care about other people.


Oh, and regarding Fi -- there is nothing about Fi that would directly care at all about other people. Most Fi users happen to have values that include the well-being of others, but the whole point of INTROVERTED feeling is that it's validated internally. Extroverted Feeling on the other hand is validated by the environment, so it's more direct in relation to others.

I'm not saying people that USE Fi are necessarily less empathetic than people that USE Fe (everyone uses a bit of both anyway). There's much more to empathy than Feeling. I'm just saying the function itself has nothing directly to do with other people.

Feeling cannot be validated internally.

To validate internally means to do this; say to yourself "what other people think does not matter, I know what I think and thats period. So I shall assess myself only by own my standard'.

Introverted Feeling cannot do this. In order to hold such an attitude one must be an autonomous thinker, this requires logical reasoning capabilities which Introverted Feeling does not provide.

Inevitably introverted feeling requires emotional support in order to feel validated, this necessarily derives from the outside.

Introverted Feeling however, is stimulated most easily by the internal world, (though paradoxically the content of the inner world derives from the external world almost indiscriminantly) but because it lacks autonomy of thought it cannot be validated by the internal world. It therefore, just like Extroverted Feeling, requires external stimulation.

Because both Feeling types are unable to be autonomous, they rely on others for support. This leads them both to make attachments to people, which forces them to care about others.

In conclusion, your thesis that Fe prompts one to care about people and Fi does not is untenable.
 

Lady_X

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hey...i completely understood that and it makes sense...surprisingly so.

so that's why they feel less real or complete until they are expressed?
 

Lady_X

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Yeh, true. We probably know the feeling from Fi and associate it because we see the other with Ne. Hence empathy forms. I don't have much of an idea about it, except when what is said seems to contradict the reality I live in.

Like anyone can show me the sources for what they have read about it. But from just sitting here experiencing it, most things can be pretty easy to disprove.

p.s. I think you miss the point on invalid. If you think you can read an ENFP you would not have written the initial post. My mum is an INFJ, she has known me 27 years, we are close (probably more than you and your friend). She is mature. She is intelligent, knowledgeable, philosophical. She respects me, wants the best for me, cares about me, agrees with me, but on a deeper level has never understood me, or the way I work. I still surprise her. I don't surprise that many ENFPs. So being certain you know, is not a healthy perspective. Knowing that you don't know is the best way to approach it. It will be healthy for your relationship with your ENFP friend also. The girl was probably messed up, probably not NPD. I knew a lot who were close, but until I met a true case of it I didn't realise how naive a diagnosis it was to call the others that.

that's interesting too! and my mom is also infj...and we're incredibly close but yeah...she is shocked by me quite often...she misunderstands things quite a lot too....it must go both ways more then i realize too...interesting.
 

BlueScreen

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that's interesting too! and my mom is also infj...and we're incredibly close but yeah...she is shocked by me quite often...she misunderstands things quite a lot too....it must go both ways more then i realize too...interesting.

Yeh, I've wondered what I miss about her. I've noticed it all more recently, because I've been deciding on new careers. So been talking a lot about things. And sometimes she has me figured so wrongly on things. Often it seems from my view that she takes a very literal perspective of the world. Like if I'm not out doing something as a hobbie at 9pm on a tuesday or something, I'm not interested in it. Also the misconception that I have nothing important to do because I adapt time rather than schedule. I have had this prob with girls too. Some think because I adapt I have nothing of my own to do and no interests. Or that I'm low on respect for myself. When really, it is because my interests aren't scheduled, and they are somewhere high on my interest list at the time :p.

Probably should have this conversation elsewhere, cos I'm feeling a little off topic too...
 

BlueScreen

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It can happen that NFs(usually ENFPs) will be so friendly that he/she will say something awkward or hurtful (by their standards) and they will apologize over and over again and in the end they will feel bad about it.
Why so defensive attitude?

I think I apologise when I feel I've hurt you to minimise damage to you. And to clear up any misunderstandings. Like I'd hate to burn someone without a really good reason. And if I feel I have, it doesn't sit well. I can get distracted and sit round thinking is there something I should've done.

I'll note that I can overpower it, so it isn't binding. And if I can justify it isn't harmful I won't apologise. Because too many sorrys can be annoying. There is just a weird drive to see and protect what people are and their dreams.
 

Lady_X

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i think i say sorry a lot because i'm blunt...and i joke around a lot...sometimes it's hard to tell so i have to say i'm sorry...and then i feel bad about it because i realize that person doesn't know me well enough for me to give them a hard time like that...and i am sorry...but once i know someone well that need to apologize so much goes away.
 

aufs klo

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uhg... i sometimes take the people i'm closest to for granted... that need to apologize goes away for some reason, and i'll end up just going through the motions of it all! that's one thing i know i need to change about myself
 

BerberElla

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Why NFs care about others peoples feelings so much?

Because if I hurt someone elses feelings, then it makes me feel bad.

To me it looks like that NFs can care so much about other peoples feelings that this skill can block their ability to operate normally during the day.
Is this because you are afraid of creating enemies or when you hurt someone, you hate yourself for the rest of the day.
I know it is both but I am interested in ratio.


I'm not afraid of making enemies, that happens without my even trying sometimes, No, I'm worried I will unintentionally hurt someones feelings, and then I will have to live with guilt of that.

Do you think that all people are equally soft at core?

I used to, I used to believe that everyone had a side that could feel and empathise the way I did, and that you just needed to reach deep down to help them access it. I know different now, someone people are just cold hearted and hard in their core.

It can happen that NFs(usually ENFPs) will be so friendly that he/she will say something awkward or hurtful (by their standards) and they will apologize over and over again and in the end they will feel bad about it.
Why so defensive attitude?


Because if they are hurt, then I am hurt, and I need to protect my own feelings, hence I will apologise until I am sure they understand it was never meant to hurt.

Also NFs say that they can feel other peoples feeling as their own.
I am interested in which way does this really efect you.


Yes, if someone around me feels down it brings me down, I find it very draining to be around depressed people becuase it sends me spiralling downwards and it could last far beyond when they snap out of it. If I am low anyway that I dont' mind, but if I am having a good day then I find it difficult.

Do you give empathy/simpathy to others(when they need it) in a way that you are aware of it or in a more spontaneous way?
This is probably part where J/P will play a role.


It really depends on what they need sympathy/empathy for, if I believe their situation warrants it, then I sympathise, if I don't, then I can't offer anything since false sympathy/empathy doesn't work for me.

Also it looks to me that one of the greatest fears of NFs is that they will be in bad mood so that they will not notice that the person who they love is suffering and it needs their help and care.
Is this true?


No, if someone around me is suffering, and I can't see it because I am too wrapped up in my problems, then they need to tell me, they need to verbalise, if they don't tell me I do not consider myself to blame for the fact that they went through it alone, since I would verbalise if I needed emotional help or care.

My caring about other peoples feelings is less about them than it is about how it will effect my feelings.
 

Amargith

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No it's probably not the ENFPs spreading the sadness...

And people ask us why we turn inwards when feeling bad. We just don't wanna infect the rest of the population with our sadness

Happiness though we love to share :D
 

Moiety

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This is not fully correct also. The real NT would actually try to understand what went wrong so that it does not happen again.

But I can see an ST saying and doing that.

But would the NT consider the perspective of the individual too?


evan said:
Anyone would want to see what went wrong so that it doesn't happen again. Anyone mature, that is.

This is supposed to be an anecdotal example. It's "justice" VS "mercy".
 

Moiety

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Can you understand what actually went wrong if you don't do that ?

Depend on what terms you are talking when you say "what went wrong". For boss X, what went wrong might just be "the employee didn't finish his part on time". For boss Y "what went wrong" might be "my employee is having personal problems". It's about how each person chooses interprets the situation and what the main problem is.
 

nolla

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Why NFs care about others peoples feelings so much?

To me it looks like that NFs can care so much about other peoples feelings that this skill can block their ability to operate normally during the day.
Is this because you are afraid of creating enemies or when you hurt someone, you hate yourself for the rest of the day.
I know it is both but I am interested in ratio.

Do you think that all people are equally soft at core?

For me, I think it is because as I kid I was very "soft" and even when the other kids were just having fun and not trying to be mean, it still hurt me really much. The reaction against this pain was to hide it and it made no good in the long run and I had to spend time getting myself open again. This makes me see emotional pain capable of far worse damage than expected. I am fairly sure that I understand this pain and what it does a lot better than people of my age.

So. I feel as bad causing this pain as I would if I hit someone. I can't take it lightly.

Oh, I don't make a lot of enemies but I am not really worried about that either. It is like, I don't need for everyone to like me but I don't want to hurt anyone without a good reason.


It can happen that NFs(usually ENFPs) will be so friendly that he/she will say something awkward or hurtful (by their standards) and they will apologize over and over again and in the end they will feel bad about it.
Why so defensive attitude?

I don't do this.

When it comes to talking with me they can sometimes end up somewhat disturbed because they realise that they didn't even scratch the surface.
What can make them even more uncomfortable. (I presume)

Yes, it would make me awkward if I don't see any "you" inside you, if that is what you meant.

Also NFs say that they can feel other peoples feeling as their own.
I am interested in which way does this really efect you.

Most of the time that I am with people, my mood is partly what they feel and partly what I feel. I do see the difference though, it isn't like I don't know if it is their feeling or mine. Well, they mix up the longer I am with them. It's a bit hard to describe. If I am with depressed people, it is really hard for me to try stay positive. Maybe this is because I want to understand people, so I need to "imagine" their feelings but it is not just imagining, it is also like I live those feelings.

I've done some acting just for fun and I realized that the best way to make my character more real is to imagine the person and his feelings. Not think about how I should look like, but concentrate fully on what I should feel. This might be part of the same phenomenon.

Do you give empathy/simpathy to others(when they need it) in a way that you are aware of it or in a more spontaneous way?
This is probably part where J/P will play a role.

Interesting question. I think it is mostly spontaneous. If my room mate comes home all depressed, I do make a decision first, I decide if I'd better leave him be or if I should sit around (to show I am there if he wants to talk), but after that my reactions are mostly spontaneous. Actually if I try to analyze his situation with him, my emotions go on the background and my thoughts come forward, so, I think the empathy is something that NEEDS spontaneity in order to function.


Also it looks to me that one of the greatest fears of NFs is that they will be in bad mood so that they will not notice that the person who they love is suffering and it needs their help and care.
Is this true?

No. Not really. I feel very good about myself if I manage to help someone, but I think this as something I am not supposed to do all the time. It's like, my basic "mission" is to not bring more pain to people and it is like a bonus that I can relieve pain. It isn't like I expect people to suppose me to be their personal shrink.
 

mlittrell

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Why NFs care about others peoples feelings so much?

i project my emotions onto other people (unconsciously many times and not openly) and thus care about others emotions as i do my own
Do you think that all people are equally soft at core?
interesting question i must say. i think it differs from person to person but really i dont care.

It can happen that NFs(usually ENFPs) will be so friendly that he/she will say something awkward or hurtful (by their standards) and they will apologize over and over again and in the end they will feel bad about it.
Why so defensive attitude?

i rarely do this anymore. and i think they do this because they do not want people to have a changed or swayed view of their true self.

Also NFs say that they can feel other peoples feeling as their own.
I am interested in which way does this really efect you.

i can feel them but if need be i can ignore them just the same. this allows me to criticize people (a tough love thing, only to my good friends).
Do you give empathy/simpathy to others(when they need it) in a way that you are aware of it or in a more spontaneous way?
This is probably part where J/P will play a role.

i give sympathy/empathy when needed. if it is someone who naturally just craves sympathy then of course im not going to give it, though i will still be nice.

Also it looks to me that one of the greatest fears of NFs is that they will be in bad mood so that they will not notice that the person who they love is suffering and it needs their help and care.
Is this true?
no. i generally notice it more because like i said, i project my own emotions on people.
 

Tiltyred

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Feeling cannot be validated internally.

To validate internally means to do this; say to yourself "what other people think does not matter, I know what I think and thats period. So I shall assess myself only by own my standard'.

Introverted Feeling cannot do this. In order to hold such an attitude one must be an autonomous thinker, this requires logical reasoning capabilities which Introverted Feeling does not provide.

Inevitably introverted feeling requires emotional support in order to feel validated, this necessarily derives from the outside.

Introverted Feeling however, is stimulated most easily by the internal world, (though paradoxically the content of the inner world derives from the external world almost indiscriminantly) but because it lacks autonomy of thought it cannot be validated by the internal world. It therefore, just like Extroverted Feeling, requires external stimulation.

Because both Feeling types are unable to be autonomous, they rely on others for support. This leads them both to make attachments to people, which forces them to care about others.

In conclusion, your thesis that Fe prompts one to care about people and Fi does not is untenable.


I don't understand this.

Why can't feeling can be authenticated internally just as you described internally authenticating thought. "I know what I feel and that's that."
 

BlueScreen

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I don't understand this.

Why can't feeling can be authenticated internally just as you described internally authenticating thought. "I know what I feel and that's that."

The only times I have ever heard that line, it came from INFJs. In this situation it is wrong to extrapolate to other types.

Maybe if Fi was placed with Ni such a thing would occur because of the definiteness of the introverted intuition process, but the person would also never see the light of day because they would have no strong external reference. In real types it is grouped with Ne or Se (the two most powerful functions in terms of observing others). So the information processed and valued will normally have reference to others. Also the learning of the values at a younger age will have reference to others and the external world, because Ne and Se are tuned to pick up the slightest of differences in situations. So the line would often be, "I know what I feel, but what I see is inconsistent with it. Maybe what I'm feeling is wrong. What is really happening here instead?"
 

Tiltyred

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The only times I have ever heard that line, it came from INFJs. In this situation it is wrong to extrapolate to other types.

Maybe if Fi was placed with Ni such a thing would occur because of the definiteness of the introverted intuition process, but the person would also never see the light of day because they would have no strong external reference. In real types it is grouped with Ne or Se (the two most powerful functions in terms of observing others). So the information processed and valued will normally have reference to others. Also the learning of the values at a younger age will have reference to others and the external world, because Ne and Se are tuned to pick up the slightest of differences in situations. So the line would often be, "I know what I feel, but what I see is inconsistent with it. Maybe what I'm feeling is wrong. What is really happening here instead?"

Yeah, that was true when I was young, and it wasted a lot of time and energy. Now the process is

"I know what I feel, but what I see is inconsistent with it. Maybe things are being misrepresented to me."

Because when my feeling has been at odds what what I'm seeing, in every instance, it was because I was being lied to.
 

BlueScreen

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Yeah, that was true when I was young, and it wasted a lot of time and energy. Now the process is

"I know what I feel, but what I see is inconsistent with it. Maybe things are being misrepresented to me."

Because when my feeling has been at odds what what I'm seeing, in every instance, it was because I was being lied to.

Yeh, intuition is a pretty reliable process when it has the right things to work with. Misinformation is a problem for us too. You can't know the right answer without the right information, no matter how intuitive you are.
 

PinkIceTD

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For me, I think i need external cues to validate my own self-image. I need someone to feel good about being with me, for me to feel good about me. If someone feels negativly about me, so do i.



Because if think i crossed my own line, i assume i crossed the line of the other person. I just assume everyone would get offended about the same stuff. Then sometimes I'll appologize for appologizing because I realize how stupid I was being (because they thought it was stupid).

And about feeling others' feelings, the other day I had a moment where I ran into someone I don't like. They saw me, and turned away, but i saw how depressed and negative they looked. My first instinct was, 'okay, going over there and talking to her will make her feel ten times better,' so I went over there, 100% ignoring that it was literally the last thing in the world I wanted to do. Oi, why can't I just not do that... So, for me, it's more subliminal than even spontaneous.

And yeah, I can be in a really depressed mood, just waiting for someone to notice, but compleatly hiding it. But that doesn't happen too often, being happy is more fun than depressed.

:yes:
 

dee

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Is this because you are afraid of creating enemies or when you hurt someone, you hate yourself for the rest of the day.

I really hate hurting someones feelings, if a person gets mad at me, normally I'll start thinking about how the person is feeling, and how I can cheer them up, or help them relax or whatever. (Even if the hostility is directed towards me) During the rare times
where I actually get annoyed or mad back at the person, no more than a day will go by, till I start thinking about his/her point of view, and try to patch things up.

I don't like hurting people, when it's close people like family, I can give them critisizm, but in my head I rationalize this, as I'm really doing it because I care for them and want to see them start "solutionizing."

Do you think that all people are equally soft at core?

No I do not, I think some people are really tough and nothing bothers them, they don't feel affected by other peoples problems or emotions or whatever.
Maybe deep down they care for them, but they do not have the pychological makeup to 1) portray that feeling of caring to the other person 2) feel it on a deep level.

It can happen that NFs(usually ENFPs) will be so friendly that he/she will say something awkward or hurtful (by their standards) and they will apologize over and over again and in the end they will feel bad about it.
Why so defensive attitude?

I don't do this. If on the rare occasion I start being overly apologetic, I catch myself and stop.

When it comes to talking with me they can sometimes end up somewhat disturbed because they realise that they didn't even scratch the surface.
What can make them even more uncomfortable. (I presume)

There are very few people that I just can't communicate with, i.e empathizing, understanding the other, and interacting with them per their issues.. emotions etc.
There are 3 kinds of people I find this to be really difficult
1) people that are very "closed" and or that have a very cynical way of looking at life
2) people that are very flaky ,because they are too much not in reality.
3) really crazy phyco people, cause I don't want to get in their head space...

But only if it's really extreme, otherwise I normally find some way to communicate, maybe not on the same high level, but at some level.

Also NFs say that they can feel other peoples feeling as their own.
I am interested in which way does this really efect you.

It's a very strong feeling for me, if someone, virtually anyone is sad, or is going through a crisis, or whatever, I feel the persons pain very deeply, I feel extreme empathy and compassion. When a person has other feelings, say positive feelings, I feel happy for them and elated. It effects me sometimes to the point where I feel I must be there for this person, in good times and bad.
Many times I feel peoples feelings without them even wanting me to because I just do, and I automatically "respond" to that.
People normally feel good about that- like someone cares or is in my headspace, as far as those that don't like it, they project that feeling, I comprehend it instantly and I move on to another subject etc.

Sometimes when I go to a big gathering or party,I find it very draining, as I can sense peoples moods even from far away -across the room,and it is extremely hard to feel everyones emotions at the same time. Normally I will do this- go from one person to the next and feeling with them etc. then to the next..
Once when it was a group, I tuned in to what the groups emotions were as "group" and acted accordingly.

It can be draining, but I don't feel I have a choice, I can't shut off these senses, i just pick up other peoples feelings in an instance.

I know all this must sound extremely weird to you. But I really am just explaining what it's like, it can be very intense.

Do you give empathy/simpathy to others(when they need it) in a way that you are aware of it or in a more spontaneous way?
This is probably part where J/P will play a role.

I am a j, but it's not planned out, I just give empathy according to the situation, I normally start out just spontaneously because of the instantaneous feeling pickup I get. Then if it goes on for longer than I thought.. I might actively (knowingly) give the empathy. etc.

Also it looks to me that one of the greatest fears of NFs is that they will be in bad mood so that they will not notice that the person who they love is suffering and it needs their help and care.
Is this true?

No this is not true for me. If I am in a really bad mood then I can't interact with others anyway, and if I am at work and have no choice but to communicate with other people, then depending on how strong the emotion is, I normally can transcend my own - if it's to help them in some way. It normally helps my mood actually if I do this.

Also if someone is going through a crisis, major change in their life etc, I can't help but to think about them, even when I'm not around them. Hope for their well being etc.

That was a lot of questions to ask in one post, but hey, you got what you wanted right? :)
Hope this helped you in your quest to understanding humanity.
Best Wishes, dee
 
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