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  1. #51
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    But would the NT consider the perspective of the individual too?
    Can you understand what actually went wrong if you don't do that ?

  2. #52
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    Can you understand what actually went wrong if you don't do that ?
    Depend on what terms you are talking when you say "what went wrong". For boss X, what went wrong might just be "the employee didn't finish his part on time". For boss Y "what went wrong" might be "my employee is having personal problems". It's about how each person chooses interprets the situation and what the main problem is.

  3. #53
    Senor Membrane
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    Why NFs care about others peoples feelings so much?

    To me it looks like that NFs can care so much about other peoples feelings that this skill can block their ability to operate normally during the day.
    Is this because you are afraid of creating enemies or when you hurt someone, you hate yourself for the rest of the day.
    I know it is both but I am interested in ratio.

    Do you think that all people are equally soft at core?
    For me, I think it is because as I kid I was very "soft" and even when the other kids were just having fun and not trying to be mean, it still hurt me really much. The reaction against this pain was to hide it and it made no good in the long run and I had to spend time getting myself open again. This makes me see emotional pain capable of far worse damage than expected. I am fairly sure that I understand this pain and what it does a lot better than people of my age.

    So. I feel as bad causing this pain as I would if I hit someone. I can't take it lightly.

    Oh, I don't make a lot of enemies but I am not really worried about that either. It is like, I don't need for everyone to like me but I don't want to hurt anyone without a good reason.


    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    It can happen that NFs(usually ENFPs) will be so friendly that he/she will say something awkward or hurtful (by their standards) and they will apologize over and over again and in the end they will feel bad about it.
    Why so defensive attitude?
    I don't do this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    When it comes to talking with me they can sometimes end up somewhat disturbed because they realise that they didn't even scratch the surface.
    What can make them even more uncomfortable. (I presume)
    Yes, it would make me awkward if I don't see any "you" inside you, if that is what you meant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    Also NFs say that they can feel other peoples feeling as their own.
    I am interested in which way does this really efect you.
    Most of the time that I am with people, my mood is partly what they feel and partly what I feel. I do see the difference though, it isn't like I don't know if it is their feeling or mine. Well, they mix up the longer I am with them. It's a bit hard to describe. If I am with depressed people, it is really hard for me to try stay positive. Maybe this is because I want to understand people, so I need to "imagine" their feelings but it is not just imagining, it is also like I live those feelings.

    I've done some acting just for fun and I realized that the best way to make my character more real is to imagine the person and his feelings. Not think about how I should look like, but concentrate fully on what I should feel. This might be part of the same phenomenon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    Do you give empathy/simpathy to others(when they need it) in a way that you are aware of it or in a more spontaneous way?
    This is probably part where J/P will play a role.
    Interesting question. I think it is mostly spontaneous. If my room mate comes home all depressed, I do make a decision first, I decide if I'd better leave him be or if I should sit around (to show I am there if he wants to talk), but after that my reactions are mostly spontaneous. Actually if I try to analyze his situation with him, my emotions go on the background and my thoughts come forward, so, I think the empathy is something that NEEDS spontaneity in order to function.


    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    Also it looks to me that one of the greatest fears of NFs is that they will be in bad mood so that they will not notice that the person who they love is suffering and it needs their help and care.
    Is this true?
    No. Not really. I feel very good about myself if I manage to help someone, but I think this as something I am not supposed to do all the time. It's like, my basic "mission" is to not bring more pain to people and it is like a bonus that I can relieve pain. It isn't like I expect people to suppose me to be their personal shrink.

  4. #54
    Senior Member mlittrell's Avatar
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    Why NFs care about others peoples feelings so much?
    i project my emotions onto other people (unconsciously many times and not openly) and thus care about others emotions as i do my own
    Do you think that all people are equally soft at core?
    interesting question i must say. i think it differs from person to person but really i dont care.

    It can happen that NFs(usually ENFPs) will be so friendly that he/she will say something awkward or hurtful (by their standards) and they will apologize over and over again and in the end they will feel bad about it.
    Why so defensive attitude?
    i rarely do this anymore. and i think they do this because they do not want people to have a changed or swayed view of their true self.

    Also NFs say that they can feel other peoples feeling as their own.
    I am interested in which way does this really efect you.
    i can feel them but if need be i can ignore them just the same. this allows me to criticize people (a tough love thing, only to my good friends).
    Do you give empathy/simpathy to others(when they need it) in a way that you are aware of it or in a more spontaneous way?
    This is probably part where J/P will play a role.
    i give sympathy/empathy when needed. if it is someone who naturally just craves sympathy then of course im not going to give it, though i will still be nice.

    Also it looks to me that one of the greatest fears of NFs is that they will be in bad mood so that they will not notice that the person who they love is suffering and it needs their help and care.
    Is this true?
    no. i generally notice it more because like i said, i project my own emotions on people.
    "Honest differences are often a healthy sign of progress. "

    "You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty."

    "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

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  5. #55
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Feeling cannot be validated internally.

    To validate internally means to do this; say to yourself "what other people think does not matter, I know what I think and thats period. So I shall assess myself only by own my standard'.

    Introverted Feeling cannot do this. In order to hold such an attitude one must be an autonomous thinker, this requires logical reasoning capabilities which Introverted Feeling does not provide.

    Inevitably introverted feeling requires emotional support in order to feel validated, this necessarily derives from the outside.

    Introverted Feeling however, is stimulated most easily by the internal world, (though paradoxically the content of the inner world derives from the external world almost indiscriminantly) but because it lacks autonomy of thought it cannot be validated by the internal world. It therefore, just like Extroverted Feeling, requires external stimulation.

    Because both Feeling types are unable to be autonomous, they rely on others for support. This leads them both to make attachments to people, which forces them to care about others.

    In conclusion, your thesis that Fe prompts one to care about people and Fi does not is untenable.

    I don't understand this.

    Why can't feeling can be authenticated internally just as you described internally authenticating thought. "I know what I feel and that's that."

  6. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    I don't understand this.

    Why can't feeling can be authenticated internally just as you described internally authenticating thought. "I know what I feel and that's that."
    The only times I have ever heard that line, it came from INFJs. In this situation it is wrong to extrapolate to other types.

    Maybe if Fi was placed with Ni such a thing would occur because of the definiteness of the introverted intuition process, but the person would also never see the light of day because they would have no strong external reference. In real types it is grouped with Ne or Se (the two most powerful functions in terms of observing others). So the information processed and valued will normally have reference to others. Also the learning of the values at a younger age will have reference to others and the external world, because Ne and Se are tuned to pick up the slightest of differences in situations. So the line would often be, "I know what I feel, but what I see is inconsistent with it. Maybe what I'm feeling is wrong. What is really happening here instead?"
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  7. #57
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noigmn View Post
    The only times I have ever heard that line, it came from INFJs. In this situation it is wrong to extrapolate to other types.

    Maybe if Fi was placed with Ni such a thing would occur because of the definiteness of the introverted intuition process, but the person would also never see the light of day because they would have no strong external reference. In real types it is grouped with Ne or Se (the two most powerful functions in terms of observing others). So the information processed and valued will normally have reference to others. Also the learning of the values at a younger age will have reference to others and the external world, because Ne and Se are tuned to pick up the slightest of differences in situations. So the line would often be, "I know what I feel, but what I see is inconsistent with it. Maybe what I'm feeling is wrong. What is really happening here instead?"
    Yeah, that was true when I was young, and it wasted a lot of time and energy. Now the process is

    "I know what I feel, but what I see is inconsistent with it. Maybe things are being misrepresented to me."

    Because when my feeling has been at odds what what I'm seeing, in every instance, it was because I was being lied to.

  8. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Yeah, that was true when I was young, and it wasted a lot of time and energy. Now the process is

    "I know what I feel, but what I see is inconsistent with it. Maybe things are being misrepresented to me."

    Because when my feeling has been at odds what what I'm seeing, in every instance, it was because I was being lied to.
    Yeh, intuition is a pretty reliable process when it has the right things to work with. Misinformation is a problem for us too. You can't know the right answer without the right information, no matter how intuitive you are.
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  9. #59
    Senior Member PinkIceTD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aufs klo View Post
    For me, I think i need external cues to validate my own self-image. I need someone to feel good about being with me, for me to feel good about me. If someone feels negativly about me, so do i.



    Because if think i crossed my own line, i assume i crossed the line of the other person. I just assume everyone would get offended about the same stuff. Then sometimes I'll appologize for appologizing because I realize how stupid I was being (because they thought it was stupid).

    And about feeling others' feelings, the other day I had a moment where I ran into someone I don't like. They saw me, and turned away, but i saw how depressed and negative they looked. My first instinct was, 'okay, going over there and talking to her will make her feel ten times better,' so I went over there, 100% ignoring that it was literally the last thing in the world I wanted to do. Oi, why can't I just not do that... So, for me, it's more subliminal than even spontaneous.

    And yeah, I can be in a really depressed mood, just waiting for someone to notice, but compleatly hiding it. But that doesn't happen too often, being happy is more fun than depressed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    I call it ENFP crazy eyes.
    "Love is not a product of reasonings and statistics. It just comes--none knows whence--and cannot explain itself." -Mark Twain, Eve's Diary

    "Laughter which cannot be suppressed is catching. Sooner or later it washes away our defences, and undermines our dignity, and we join in it -- ashamed of our weakness, and embittered against the cause of its exposure, but no matter, we have to join in, there is no help for it." Mark Twain

  10. #60
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    Is this because you are afraid of creating enemies or when you hurt someone, you hate yourself for the rest of the day.
    I really hate hurting someones feelings, if a person gets mad at me, normally I'll start thinking about how the person is feeling, and how I can cheer them up, or help them relax or whatever. (Even if the hostility is directed towards me) During the rare times
    where I actually get annoyed or mad back at the person, no more than a day will go by, till I start thinking about his/her point of view, and try to patch things up.

    I don't like hurting people, when it's close people like family, I can give them critisizm, but in my head I rationalize this, as I'm really doing it because I care for them and want to see them start "solutionizing."

    Do you think that all people are equally soft at core?
    No I do not, I think some people are really tough and nothing bothers them, they don't feel affected by other peoples problems or emotions or whatever.
    Maybe deep down they care for them, but they do not have the pychological makeup to 1) portray that feeling of caring to the other person 2) feel it on a deep level.

    It can happen that NFs(usually ENFPs) will be so friendly that he/she will say something awkward or hurtful (by their standards) and they will apologize over and over again and in the end they will feel bad about it.
    Why so defensive attitude?
    I don't do this. If on the rare occasion I start being overly apologetic, I catch myself and stop.

    When it comes to talking with me they can sometimes end up somewhat disturbed because they realise that they didn't even scratch the surface.
    What can make them even more uncomfortable. (I presume)
    There are very few people that I just can't communicate with, i.e empathizing, understanding the other, and interacting with them per their issues.. emotions etc.
    There are 3 kinds of people I find this to be really difficult
    1) people that are very "closed" and or that have a very cynical way of looking at life
    2) people that are very flaky ,because they are too much not in reality.
    3) really crazy phyco people, cause I don't want to get in their head space...

    But only if it's really extreme, otherwise I normally find some way to communicate, maybe not on the same high level, but at some level.

    Also NFs say that they can feel other peoples feeling as their own.
    I am interested in which way does this really efect you.

    It's a very strong feeling for me, if someone, virtually anyone is sad, or is going through a crisis, or whatever, I feel the persons pain very deeply, I feel extreme empathy and compassion. When a person has other feelings, say positive feelings, I feel happy for them and elated. It effects me sometimes to the point where I feel I must be there for this person, in good times and bad.
    Many times I feel peoples feelings without them even wanting me to because I just do, and I automatically "respond" to that.
    People normally feel good about that- like someone cares or is in my headspace, as far as those that don't like it, they project that feeling, I comprehend it instantly and I move on to another subject etc.

    Sometimes when I go to a big gathering or party,I find it very draining, as I can sense peoples moods even from far away -across the room,and it is extremely hard to feel everyones emotions at the same time. Normally I will do this- go from one person to the next and feeling with them etc. then to the next..
    Once when it was a group, I tuned in to what the groups emotions were as "group" and acted accordingly.

    It can be draining, but I don't feel I have a choice, I can't shut off these senses, i just pick up other peoples feelings in an instance.

    I know all this must sound extremely weird to you. But I really am just explaining what it's like, it can be very intense.

    Do you give empathy/simpathy to others(when they need it) in a way that you are aware of it or in a more spontaneous way?
    This is probably part where J/P will play a role.
    I am a j, but it's not planned out, I just give empathy according to the situation, I normally start out just spontaneously because of the instantaneous feeling pickup I get. Then if it goes on for longer than I thought.. I might actively (knowingly) give the empathy. etc.

    Also it looks to me that one of the greatest fears of NFs is that they will be in bad mood so that they will not notice that the person who they love is suffering and it needs their help and care.
    Is this true?
    No this is not true for me. If I am in a really bad mood then I can't interact with others anyway, and if I am at work and have no choice but to communicate with other people, then depending on how strong the emotion is, I normally can transcend my own - if it's to help them in some way. It normally helps my mood actually if I do this.

    Also if someone is going through a crisis, major change in their life etc, I can't help but to think about them, even when I'm not around them. Hope for their well being etc.

    That was a lot of questions to ask in one post, but hey, you got what you wanted right?
    Hope this helped you in your quest to understanding humanity.
    Best Wishes, dee

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