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  1. #41
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evan View Post
    To be clear, I wasn't at all trying to generalize to all ENFPs. My ENFP best friend is incredibly empathetic, and is probably the "best" person I know. Most healthy ENFPs are amazing people.

    I was just trying to make clear that not all members of a type are the same. This girl happens to have NPD...I think she likes me as much as she can like a person; she's not angry at me at all, she just sees me as a tool in her grandiose plans instead of a person of equal value. Honestly, it barely even upsets me at this point -- I think of her more as a force of nature -- I can't really change her.

    My thoughts on her are far from invalid, though. It's not that I can't understand her. I can actually understand her incredibly well. For this reason, she trusts me more than almost anyone else -- I know how to speak her language in her terms, and can have a more useful conversation with her than almost anyone else (she mostly just blows off everyone).

    Anyway, just an example of an NF who literally doesn't care about other people.


    Oh, and regarding Fi -- there is nothing about Fi that would directly care at all about other people. Most Fi users happen to have values that include the well-being of others, but the whole point of INTROVERTED feeling is that it's validated internally. Extroverted Feeling on the other hand is validated by the environment, so it's more direct in relation to others.

    I'm not saying people that USE Fi are necessarily less empathetic than people that USE Fe (everyone uses a bit of both anyway). There's much more to empathy than Feeling. I'm just saying the function itself has nothing directly to do with other people.
    Feeling cannot be validated internally.

    To validate internally means to do this; say to yourself "what other people think does not matter, I know what I think and thats period. So I shall assess myself only by own my standard'.

    Introverted Feeling cannot do this. In order to hold such an attitude one must be an autonomous thinker, this requires logical reasoning capabilities which Introverted Feeling does not provide.

    Inevitably introverted feeling requires emotional support in order to feel validated, this necessarily derives from the outside.

    Introverted Feeling however, is stimulated most easily by the internal world, (though paradoxically the content of the inner world derives from the external world almost indiscriminantly) but because it lacks autonomy of thought it cannot be validated by the internal world. It therefore, just like Extroverted Feeling, requires external stimulation.

    Because both Feeling types are unable to be autonomous, they rely on others for support. This leads them both to make attachments to people, which forces them to care about others.

    In conclusion, your thesis that Fe prompts one to care about people and Fi does not is untenable.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  2. #42
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    hey...i completely understood that and it makes sense...surprisingly so.

    so that's why they feel less real or complete until they are expressed?
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  3. #43
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noigmn View Post
    Yeh, true. We probably know the feeling from Fi and associate it because we see the other with Ne. Hence empathy forms. I don't have much of an idea about it, except when what is said seems to contradict the reality I live in.

    Like anyone can show me the sources for what they have read about it. But from just sitting here experiencing it, most things can be pretty easy to disprove.

    p.s. I think you miss the point on invalid. If you think you can read an ENFP you would not have written the initial post. My mum is an INFJ, she has known me 27 years, we are close (probably more than you and your friend). She is mature. She is intelligent, knowledgeable, philosophical. She respects me, wants the best for me, cares about me, agrees with me, but on a deeper level has never understood me, or the way I work. I still surprise her. I don't surprise that many ENFPs. So being certain you know, is not a healthy perspective. Knowing that you don't know is the best way to approach it. It will be healthy for your relationship with your ENFP friend also. The girl was probably messed up, probably not NPD. I knew a lot who were close, but until I met a true case of it I didn't realise how naive a diagnosis it was to call the others that.
    that's interesting too! and my mom is also infj...and we're incredibly close but yeah...she is shocked by me quite often...she misunderstands things quite a lot too....it must go both ways more then i realize too...interesting.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by erinavery View Post
    that's interesting too! and my mom is also infj...and we're incredibly close but yeah...she is shocked by me quite often...she misunderstands things quite a lot too....it must go both ways more then i realize too...interesting.
    Yeh, I've wondered what I miss about her. I've noticed it all more recently, because I've been deciding on new careers. So been talking a lot about things. And sometimes she has me figured so wrongly on things. Often it seems from my view that she takes a very literal perspective of the world. Like if I'm not out doing something as a hobbie at 9pm on a tuesday or something, I'm not interested in it. Also the misconception that I have nothing important to do because I adapt time rather than schedule. I have had this prob with girls too. Some think because I adapt I have nothing of my own to do and no interests. Or that I'm low on respect for myself. When really, it is because my interests aren't scheduled, and they are somewhere high on my interest list at the time :P.

    Probably should have this conversation elsewhere, cos I'm feeling a little off topic too...
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    It can happen that NFs(usually ENFPs) will be so friendly that he/she will say something awkward or hurtful (by their standards) and they will apologize over and over again and in the end they will feel bad about it.
    Why so defensive attitude?
    I think I apologise when I feel I've hurt you to minimise damage to you. And to clear up any misunderstandings. Like I'd hate to burn someone without a really good reason. And if I feel I have, it doesn't sit well. I can get distracted and sit round thinking is there something I should've done.

    I'll note that I can overpower it, so it isn't binding. And if I can justify it isn't harmful I won't apologise. Because too many sorrys can be annoying. There is just a weird drive to see and protect what people are and their dreams.
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  6. #46
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    i think i say sorry a lot because i'm blunt...and i joke around a lot...sometimes it's hard to tell so i have to say i'm sorry...and then i feel bad about it because i realize that person doesn't know me well enough for me to give them a hard time like that...and i am sorry...but once i know someone well that need to apologize so much goes away.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  7. #47
    Senior Member aufs klo's Avatar
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    uhg... i sometimes take the people i'm closest to for granted... that need to apologize goes away for some reason, and i'll end up just going through the motions of it all! that's one thing i know i need to change about myself
    What's up universe?

  8. #48
    12 and a half weeks BerberElla's Avatar
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    Why NFs care about others peoples feelings so much?

    Because if I hurt someone elses feelings, then it makes me feel bad.

    To me it looks like that NFs can care so much about other peoples feelings that this skill can block their ability to operate normally during the day.
    Is this because you are afraid of creating enemies or when you hurt someone, you hate yourself for the rest of the day.
    I know it is both but I am interested in ratio.


    I'm not afraid of making enemies, that happens without my even trying sometimes, No, I'm worried I will unintentionally hurt someones feelings, and then I will have to live with guilt of that.

    Do you think that all people are equally soft at core?

    I used to, I used to believe that everyone had a side that could feel and empathise the way I did, and that you just needed to reach deep down to help them access it. I know different now, someone people are just cold hearted and hard in their core.

    It can happen that NFs(usually ENFPs) will be so friendly that he/she will say something awkward or hurtful (by their standards) and they will apologize over and over again and in the end they will feel bad about it.
    Why so defensive attitude?


    Because if they are hurt, then I am hurt, and I need to protect my own feelings, hence I will apologise until I am sure they understand it was never meant to hurt.

    Also NFs say that they can feel other peoples feeling as their own.
    I am interested in which way does this really efect you.


    Yes, if someone around me feels down it brings me down, I find it very draining to be around depressed people becuase it sends me spiralling downwards and it could last far beyond when they snap out of it. If I am low anyway that I dont' mind, but if I am having a good day then I find it difficult.

    Do you give empathy/simpathy to others(when they need it) in a way that you are aware of it or in a more spontaneous way?
    This is probably part where J/P will play a role.


    It really depends on what they need sympathy/empathy for, if I believe their situation warrants it, then I sympathise, if I don't, then I can't offer anything since false sympathy/empathy doesn't work for me.

    Also it looks to me that one of the greatest fears of NFs is that they will be in bad mood so that they will not notice that the person who they love is suffering and it needs their help and care.
    Is this true?


    No, if someone around me is suffering, and I can't see it because I am too wrapped up in my problems, then they need to tell me, they need to verbalise, if they don't tell me I do not consider myself to blame for the fact that they went through it alone, since I would verbalise if I needed emotional help or care.

    My caring about other peoples feelings is less about them than it is about how it will effect my feelings.
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  9. #49
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    No it's probably not the ENFPs spreading the sadness...
    And people ask us why we turn inwards when feeling bad. We just don't wanna infect the rest of the population with our sadness

    Happiness though we love to share
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  10. #50
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    This is not fully correct also. The real NT would actually try to understand what went wrong so that it does not happen again.

    But I can see an ST saying and doing that.
    But would the NT consider the perspective of the individual too?


    Quote Originally Posted by evan
    Anyone would want to see what went wrong so that it doesn't happen again. Anyone mature, that is.
    This is supposed to be an anecdotal example. It's "justice" VS "mercy".

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