[MBTI General] who're more manipulative? entp or infj

[BlahBlahNounBlah]

INFJs love a needy ENTP. It puts everything in perspective for us - that we reign supremely.

 

[Synarch]

Aaah but what do you do with those thoughts? Do you keep 'em inside, and be the humbug that wants to come out and play? Or do you go right out and get needy?

INFJs love a needy ENTP. It puts everything in perspective for us - that we reign supremely.

I don't know that I buy that last part. Though, you might be being facetious.

I keep them inside until I start to freak out then I go and gush them all over. I don't know how other ENTP's are but I am always afraid of being hurt. I think I like INFJ/INTJ's because they are solid and seem to accept my fractiousness as long as I do not try to destabilize them with my emotions by making unfair demands.

This fear is the main reason for my distance. I am insensitive because I am sensitive.

 

[BlahBlahNounBlah]

I'm too lazy to contribute to this discussion, and all of Synarch's opinions in this thread have been identical to my own. So I'll just agree and then go back to reading my book.

 

[cascadeco]

Here's my interpretation of what you said:

ENTP: "Man, geez, I'm sorry. I could undo this so that we could go back to the way things were. What do I need to do to get us there?"

My point is that there's no sincere apology here. It's driven from more of a "What do I have to do to get you to stop moping, crying, whining, nagging?"

As an INFJ, if I got this kind of manipulative apology it would 1) REALLY hurt 2) I'd feel coerced into forcing myself to move on because I'd be afraid of further angering/irritating them and causing more damage to the relationship. I'd feel very unloved. That's for sure.

I don't think I'd take that sort of statement badly, but then maybe I've gotten to know ENTP's too well by now, so wouldn't take it personally because I don't think it's meant as such. Actually I think this might be why I tend to prefer NT's; I guess I don't take their desire to move forward/have an 'action plan' that poorly, because when I'm really down and out, I want both a way out of it - i.e. 'what do I need to do to get us there'? - and I also want the pure understanding/acknowledgment for what and how I'm feeling, which in my experience NT's can be just as compassionate with as NF's. I think there's a huge difference between how a mature ENTP/NT might handle the moping/crying/general unhappiness - as they can have a large capacity for emotional understanding and support - and how any more insensitive person (who could in fact be an F) might just treat my feelings lightly and blow them off.

I keep them inside until I start to freak out then I go and gush them all over. I don't know how other ENTP's are but I am always afraid of being hurt. I think I like INFJ/INTJ's because they are solid and seem to accept my fractiousness as long as I do not try to destabilize them with my emotions by making unfair demands.

This fear is the main reason for my distance. I am insensitive because I am sensitive.

ha, it's funny how much I tend to relate to ENTP's. Anyway, like you, I tend to keep things inside - wanting to either keep them at bay and sort them out on my own, or out of fear they might be misunderstood - but eventually they must be released. I also have the fear, although at times think it isn't so much fear as simply what I've learned over time, which is that not that many people can really identify with me, and vice versa - so hence I keep it in. But unlike you I don't externalize insensitivity because of my sensitivity (although my acquiring a more cynical outlook of people/humanity has in the past been the crutch I've used to shield myself and make myself feel stronger).

 

[Synarch]

I don't think I'd take that sort of statement badly, but then maybe I've gotten to know ENTP's too well by now, so wouldn't take it personally because I don't think it's meant as such. Actually I think this might be why I tend to prefer NT's; I guess I don't take their desire to move forward/have an 'action plan' that poorly, because when I'm really down and out, I want both a way out of it - i.e. 'what do I need to get us there'? - and I also want the pure understanding/acknowledgment for what and how I'm feeling, which in my experience NT's can be just as compassionate with as NF's. I think there's a huge difference between how a mature ENTP/NT might handle the moping/crying/general unhappiness - as they can have a large capacity for emotional understanding and support - and how any more insensitive person (who could in fact be an F) might just treat my feelings lightly and blow them off.

Glad to hear all that. This is another case where people misunderstand F vs. T. F does not mean Feeling, only evaluation. T does not simply mean Thinking but also determining "what is". Sometimes evaluation (whether something is fair/unfair, agreeable/disagreeable) is less helpful than trying to understand without presuming to RELATE or sympathize.

ha, it's funny how much I tend to relate to ENTP's. Anyway, like you, I tend to keep things inside - wanting to either keep them at bay and sort them out on my own, or out of fear they might be misunderstood - but eventually they must be released. I also have the fear, although at times think it isn't so much fear as simply what I've learned over time, which is that not that many people can really identify with me, and vice versa - so hence I keep it in. But unlike you I don't externalize insensitivity because of my sensitivity (although my acquiring a more cynical outlook of people/humanity has in the past been the crutch I've used to shield myself and make myself feel stronger).

I would refrain from externalizing insensitivity but I just hate feeling weak and pitied. If I can't be collected in reality, I want to appear collected.

 

[ladypinkington]

Interesting.

I think ENTP's are likely to manipulate in a fairly superficial and instrumental fashion, which is unlikely to cause a crisis of conscience. Like, "Let me use my Fe powers to smooth things over and we can both be happy."

Whereas I can see an INFJ agonizing over a manipulation.

Very True- I confessed about the master plan for Project Get Dog after hubby and dog were bonded. Hubby thought it was funny and just got me- an INFJ will do INFJ things,lol. That and like Dr. Doom and James Bond villians, I must share my master plan with the worthy listener,lol.

 

[Synarch]

Very True- I confessed about the master plan for Project Get Dog after hubby and dog were bonded. That and like Dr. Doom and James Bond villians, I must share my master plan with the worthy listener,lol.

I'm sure he was charmed by your sugar-coated treachery! I would have been. It's like seeing a baby killer predator at play.

 

[cascadeco]

Glad to hear all that. This is another case where people misunderstand F vs. T. F does not mean Feeling, only evaluation. T does not simply mean Thinking but also determining "what is". Sometimes evaluation (whether something is fair/unfair, agreeable/disagreeable) is less helpful than trying to understand without presuming to RELATE or sympathize.

Yeah, I would agree.

I think for myself (and this is purely my preference, I'm not speaking for nf's or infj's here), I desire a blend of objectivity (looking at things as they are, and simply trying to uderstand what's going on and getting that information (i.e. the 'what is'), with the more empathetic 'yeah that sucks'/'yeah I hear you'/let me give you a hug piece.

I would refrain from externalizing insensitivity but I just hate feeling weak and pitied. If I can't be collected in reality, I want to appear collected.

Oh I can relate to not wanting to be viewed as weak or pitied, and I too want to appear collected.

 

[Synarch]

I think also that attempting to relate and empathize can keep people from digging into the root of the problem. I've noticed that many people mobilize very quickly without taking time to weigh what might be really going on with someone. Also, empathy can sometimes result in this tendency where people are not really listening or being attentive because they can feel like they already know how I feel and what I need to feel better. For example, sometimes I want to vent more than I want someone to kiss my booboos.

 

[Wyst]

ha, it's funny how much I tend to relate to ENTP's. Anyway, like you, I tend to keep things inside - wanting to either keep them at bay and sort them out on my own, or out of fear they might be misunderstood - but eventually they must be released. I also have the fear, although at times think it isn't so much fear as simply what I've learned over time, which is that not that many people can really identify with me, and vice versa - so hence I keep it in. But unlike you I don't externalize insensitivity because of my sensitivity (although my acquiring a more cynical outlook of people/humanity has in the past been the crutch I've used to shield myself and make myself feel stronger).

I was thinking the same thing while reading that post of syn's. Despite being being INFJs' MBTI shadow type, I find a get along very easily with ENTPs.

On a completely different note. I'm amazed at how well so many people here are able to explain their feelings in MBTI terminology. I, despite being semi-into MBTI for almost two years feel limited to using everyday language or hypothetical/real life examples to get my point across.

When you start talking about cognitive functions, I feel like ...
*scan to reading post until I find English again*

I wonder why other INFJs seem to grasp MBTI terms more readily than I do. Maybe I'm just lazy

 

[cascadeco]

I think also that attempting to relate and empathize can keep people from digging into the root of the problem. I've noticed that many people mobilize very quickly without taking time to weigh what might be really going on with someone. Also, empathy can sometimes result in this tendency where people are not really listening or being attentive because they can feel like they already know how I feel and what I need to feel better. For example, sometimes I want to vent more than I want someone to kiss my booboos.

Yes, I do agree empathy can be problematic, especially when one resorts to empathy and only empathy, time and time again, when the same problem resurfaces. That could signify a deeper issue and perhaps more of a need for finding some sort of solution. But I think it's more about people-reading, you can usually tell based on the situation and the person whether they are desirous of more pure empathy, whether they just want someone to listen and once they're done venting they feel better, or whether they are seeking a solution, or some combo of the above.

And yes re. people who tend not to be active listeners, and who tend to listen to only particular phrases that they might relate to (or think they relate to) and filtering everything else out. And yeah, I think there will always be people who tend to apply their own feelings to your situation, when you're not feeling what they would feel. I am not sure that that's related to empathy, though.

I think the venting thing might be more Fe-related - just a need to purge yourself of your feelings, and then feeling quite a lot better by the simple act of purging and letting it loose from yourself, letting it out of your cage. For me, it's like a pressure buildup...it's like I HAVE to let it out at some point, I just can't keep it to myself. Part of the act of 'healing' can be the act of letting it go...so it no longer has a hold on me.

 

[Wyst]

I don't think I'd take that sort of statement badly, but then maybe I've gotten to know ENTP's too well by now, so wouldn't take it personally because I don't think it's meant as such.

Again, I agree with you. Now that I've caught on to how I relate to ENTPs, it's helped me out a lot. For example, a year ago, had I begun this conversation with Syn, I would have felt like he was impatient in his responses and, out of feeling intimidated, I'd decided to no longer post on this thread (and probably avoid him in other threads too).

Sad huh?

But still, even if you're married, and you both understand each other's type, there's no guarantee you won't feel a natural bent to act/react a certain way with your spouse. No matter what you know to be true about your own personality and there personality, you're still going to react how your heart wants to react.

I think Woody Allen once said, "The heart wants what the heart wants".

Because the heart acts as it will, we have all kinds of problems. People commit crimes even though they know the laws and consequences, people do stupid stuff relationally even though they know it's short-lived and they'll end up getting hurt.

I didn't mean to imply that ALL INFJs would be heart by the ENTP apology that I used as an example. Just, knowing my weaknesses, I wrote what my tendency to do would look like.

 

[cascadeco]

On a completely different note. I'm amazed at how well so many people here are able to explain their feelings in MBTI terminology. I, despite being semi-into MBTI for almost two years feel limited to using everyday language or hypothetical/real life examples to get my point across.

Actually I sometimes think hypothetical/real-life is much more 'Real', more complex, and more natural (less potential to restrict your natural self) than trying to fit your own behaviors/thoughts into 8 cognitive functions (or rather, 4, since each type is supposed to only really navigate with four). Plus with cognitive functions, you just open a can of worms and all kinds of bickering can result. For myself, I try not to utilize them in threads such as these...but obviously there are threads that are specific to one or another and sometimes they can provide a good generalization that others who know about mbti theory might understand. They can be helpful in discussing abstract thoughts/perceptions, but equally problematic if followed completely by the book, by theory -because many I know in real life don't translate into the perfect theoretical framework.

 

[Synarch]

Again, I agree with you. Now that I've caught on to how I relate to ENTPs, it's helped me out a lot. For example, a year ago, had I begun this conversation with Syn, I would have felt like he was impatient in his responses and, out of feeling intimidated, I'd decided to no longer post on this thread (and probably avoid him in other threads too).

Sad huh?

I can be impatient and still want to hear what you want to say. More often than not I just want people to get to the point so we can keep ratcheting up. I find I can be pretty abrupt in almost every situation. How did you find me in person? I distinctly remember stepping on your toes, conversationally.

 

[the state i am in]

when i'm feeling poorly all i WANT is holistic relating. i want F accepting, i want harmony, glowing, enthusiasm, excitement, energy, and most of all INSPIRATION.

i'm a (5)w4 and i want to be accepted wholly and completely and have someone else become part of my system and provide new emotional positivity. this is always what i want. make me feel better!

i'm in a relationship with an intj who thinks very very similarly to the entp 7w6 viewpoints (she's a 6w7). she always focuses on what can be done, how can we solve this problem, what is the most logical maneuver, what should be our objective, what missing link in the communication process or the process whatever it is could help fix this solution. and i, especially when i'm dwelling heavy in my 4 wing, am just focused on my own perceived sense of value and wanting it to be loved holistically.

but that's not the best version of me and i know that. the best version of me is more objective in the way that cascadeco writes. i'm concerned with getting better information so i can perceive more accurately, better see the situation come what may. i use Fe in a more assertive, direct, and aggressive way to tackle problems, go after what i want, INITIATE action-based objectives, and try to fucking solve my own problems. i do not have quite the same experience as a 4w5 so when i become imbalanced and shift wholly into 4 mode i don't know how to handle it and have terrible recurring flare-ups.

the healthier more objective more in-touch with my 5ness me also recognizes what others are doing for me, giving to me, what is more logically consistent about their behavior and the context of the situation. sometimes i'll have a meditation and maybe change my perspective, and all-of-a-sudden a rush/flood of realizations hit me that my perspectives have been soooooooooooo skewed by truly bizarre Fe projections. it's a serious problem, and one of the reasons why 4w5 and 5w4 infjs sometimes suffer so much and have mental breakdowns (think daniel johnston). Fe needs solidity, confidence, anchorage, and some Ti logic to get it on the right storyline and clear away the noise. bc in that noise we can project awful awful things.

i think this is a great facet of an infj relationship with an nt (N, T). it calls me on my bullshit and checks my irrational and unfair desires i sometimes label as NEEDS. that the holistic relating/judgment/organization of F (for interaction, communication, and experience) needs some linear thinking, logical analysis, causal consistency to recognize where one mode/method of acting/interacting will lead. it prevents huge fucking spikes and continual perpetual motion self-destruction. tho at times i'm like, man i just need enfps to lift my spirits and make me feel special. the entps are still pretty damn good at knowing how to smooth things over and get you over rough patches too, but they definitely focus more on a logical problem-solving method than Fe integrity (just like infj does the opposite). the Fe is just to get you excited and going again, rather than totally igniting you.

 

[the state i am in]

And yes re. people who tend not to be active listeners, and who tend to listen to only particular phrases that they might relate to (or think they relate to) and filtering everything else out. And yeah, I think there will always be people who tend to apply their own feelings to your situation, when you're not feeling what they would feel. I am not sure that that's related to empathy, though.

as N doms we prize ourselves in our ability to kind of flow into the right area. our skill is in our perceptiveness and being able to recognize themes, meanings, possibilities, concepts, perspectives based on the interconnections and movement between things. we might not read the entire set of directions and answer a different question, but, for the most part, recognition and identification is what we best. only fixation with certain judgments creates blockages and this unhealthy projections (projection is absolutely necessary to understand someone else anyway).

I think the venting thing might be more Fe-related - just a need to purge yourself of your feelings, and then feeling quite a lot better by the simple act of purging and letting it loose from yourself, letting it out of your cage. For me, it's like a pressure buildup...it's like I HAVE to let it out at some point, I just can't keep it to myself. Part of the act of 'healing' can be the act of letting it go...so it no longer has a hold on me.

should go in the "lessons for Fe users" handbook. i knew a kid in the self-knowledge seekers after school group who advocated crying. i like writing, but getting it the fuck out is soooooo important. reboot and clear out these cobwebs of false connection and fixated judgments that fuck up our perceptual lens and its ultimate clarity.

 

[cascadeco]

when i'm feeling poorly all i WANT is holistic relating. i want F accepting, i want harmony, glowing, enthusiasm, excitement, energy, and most of all INSPIRATION.

Well, I do relate to this, when I'm really, really down about my life, myself, and am in what-am-I-doing-wrong-my-life-is-lame-I-can't-deal-with-the-circles-etc-etc mode. Feeling really connected and understood by another human being is incredibly important to me.

But, yeah, I still greatly appreciate the objective, let's-find-a-solution slant as well. Like I said, for myself I need a mix. And...a few people I know are able to provide this perfect mix. (infj's and entp's, )

...and try to fucking solve my own problems. i do not have quite the same experience as a 4w5 so when i become imbalanced and shift wholly into 4 mode i don't know how to handle it and have terrible recurring flare-ups.

I relate to recurring flareups. It can be quite a thorn in my side, and wish I could 'solve it' for good so that I don't go there now and then.

Fe needs solidity, confidence, anchorage, and some Ti logic to get it on the right storyline and clear away the noise.

 

[cascadeco]

Where I can "manipulate" is via authenticity and directness. You guys are busy playing games with each other, and being indirect. I step up, insert a direct, honest, authentic, blunt ass opinion that has no self interest. My entps will listen as they understand innately I am not playing the game and that I have a view they lack. Thus I-and the folks I care for-can win. Still manipulation.

Why does 'winning' imply manipulation? I don't think it does.

Being honest, true to yourself, and with no hidden motive or self interest (thus you're fine with however the chips fall and whatever the outcome), and things end up working out as you would have preferred - that's manipulation then? And using the same 'method' (although how can honesty and authenticity be considered a method unless you aren't *normally* honest/blunt and you're using it instead as a tactic because you know your audience will prefer it) and not 'winning', does that mean you weren't manipulating because you didn't win?

 

[Synarch]

But once the target understands the game-the ENTP game of masks-the game is up correct? If I meet a new ENTP, understand the game, understand myself, then the game cannot be played effectively. They form a mask, I modify to counter, they get a new mask, I remodify. I can play for Ne fun, but I understand there is a game under the play.

The best mask is no mask. This is how I would get past your presumed defenses. "You win. You're right. I was trying to trick you. But, only because I desperately want you to like me. I am pathetic."

1. both EXTPs will sometimes employ pure tert Fe driven with a game plan. ESTPs are NOT clever enough to know they have been found out. ENTPs very rarely try this on me, but will do it to others. However both are very effective on Fe doms and Auxs. It "feels" sleazy to me and nonauthentic so is transparent but can work really well on others.

Copping to a modicum of sleaziness can create authenticity, especially if we are sympathetic. The best mask is no mask.

3. The confused ENTP Fe who cant figure out what they want and is partially sincere and really does care, yet is still playing a game, yet feels guilty about the game. These folks can get me.

All ENTP's seem confused to me. We have like drunken style interpersonal kung fu.

I dont notice INFJs trying to manipulate me. I think they try and then just give up. My favorite thing to do to my favorite INFJ is say terribly shocking things to him and make him laugh. Fe has a hard time with Te style locker room humor coming from the mouth of a sweet enfp. Then we argue a lot. He doesnt seem very effective with the INTPs/STJs he works with-but he has the ear of one ENTP interestingly.

The unrelenting kindness and sincerity of INFJ's is my weak spot. I can't handle people actually liking me. It's like kryptonite. I will do anything for those who are closest to me. Completely disarmed. They know my weaknesses and accept me anyway.

Where I can "manipulate" is via authenticity and directness. You guys are busy playing games with each other, and being indirect. I step up, insert a direct, honest, authentic, blunt ass opinion that has no self interest. My entps will listen as they understand innately I am not playing the game and that I have a view they lack. Thus I-and the folks I care for-can win. Still manipulation.

Magnanimous, self-less ENFP's can be pretty fearsome in the way they manage to draw people to their causes. This is the only threat I ever see from ENFP's. They are too fun-loving and casual to be taken too seriously.

Final answer-who are you trying to manipulate?

No one. Everyone. I just want to be left alone to ponder this brief little mayfly life of mine.

 

[cascadeco]

As for method-perhaps this is context dependent.

In an social organization that is Te dominant, a Te approach is routine and thus the expected norm.

In a social organization where Fe indirectness is the norm, especially tert Fe, Te is not the norm.

By recognizing this differential and then using Te/Fi at strategic points, you have turned the combination of directness/authenticity into a tool. (the other ENFPs are going to tell me I am evil). I can deploy my direct, non self focused opinion to the strategic person-an ENTP/INTJ/ENFP-at the right time and substantially alter the course of action on a global corporate level.

Second-I actually do have a preferential outcome typically. Not one concrete choice but a multitude of solutions that will address equally the problem. I suppose I do have a hidden agenda. I want the organization to be molded into a form that is efficient, effective, and successful and thus generates the least amount of stress and unhappiness possible for my folks. However since it is not overtly self serving-although the psychological implications are interesting to explore-having this agenda is not held against me by the decision maker.

Ah, thanks for the clarification. Actually, I tend to quite separate work from personal life; at work, sure, I'm all about utilizing tools and such if I have an end goal in mind. So, yeah, I can easily modulate my approach/method in the workforce, and don't feel bad for doing so. It's work, it's about getting stuff done as efficiently and smoothly as possible. I still don't view it as manipulating, though. The common thread is that I'm always honest/true in my actual message, so it's not like I ever view myself as acting out a facade or anything, because I don't, I'm still being Me the entire time - it's just the manner of delivery that I adjust depending on my audience.