[MBTI General] who're more manipulative? entp or infj

[Kalach]

You know, if you guys would just say "management" instead of "manipulation" it'd make more sense of why Fe gets to be a J function.

 

[entropie]

like: who're more manageable ? Didnt know you INTJs had that nasty thoughts

 

[Wyst]

You always play this little trick. Run of the mill INFJ baiting.

I knew it would get a response from one of you. I swear pushing that button never gets old.

 

[Lightyear]

INFJs, on the other hand, are far less brash. They're like ninjas using their Ni to get the job done. In a sneak attack, they slip in, plant the subliminal message, and escape. INFJs (healthy ones) also would never manipulate to the point of risking the relationship either. They would, rather than strong arm the person quickly to get what they want when they want, be patient, and slowly change the person's mind (brainwash them).

I definitely have an evangelistic streak, when I am really passionate about something I have the power to influence people. However I am very careful about manipulation, I would feel incredibly bad and fake about coercing someone into doing something for my own selfish gain, even if the person did in the end exactly what I wanted them to do I wouldn't be able to enjoy the victory because I would hate myself for the manipulation.

It's something else if I try to get people to do something for the greater good or if I have their best interests in mind, I will try to guide them towards what I consider the right path but I will also always give them an in-built exit strategy, again I would hate myself if I really forced someone to do something against their will.

 

[Wyst]

I definitely have an evangelistic streak, when I am really passionate about something I have the power to influence people. However I am very careful about manipulation, I would feel incredibly bad and fake about coercing someone into doing something for my own selfish gain, even if the person did in the end exactly what I wanted them to do I wouldn't be able to enjoy the victory because I would hate myself for the manipulation.

It's something else if I try to get people to do something for the greater good or if I have their best interests in mind, I will try to guide them towards what I consider the right path but I will also always give them an in-built exit strategy, again I would hate myself if I really forced someone to do something against their will.

But you think there's a difference between manipulation and winning someone over, don't you. There's lots of stories where the girl was NOT interested in the guy but he kept at it and she ended up falling for him.

I wouldn't even think to say he manipulated just because she changed his mind. Manipulation comes into play when you use a person's personality, situation/circumstances, fears, motivations and other stuff as a 'carrott' to get them to walk in the direction you want to.

So, to use my example above but change it a bit...

Let's say an ENTP dude, for example, notices there's a single mom who's not making ends meet and he uses this knowledge to his advantage. He befriends the woman, 'learns' of her situation 'for the first time', expresses compassion, offers to help, and won't accept any kind of gratitude except a spoken 'thank you'. But later he'll come back and talk about some kind of tough situation, maybe tell a sad story that he used to be the son of a single mom who was barely making ends meet trying to strike a chord with the woman... suddenly he's trying to get her to feel something for him using her situation and what he's done to gain selfishly.. you get my point, right?

 

[Lightyear]

But you think there's a difference between manipulation and winning someone over, don't you. There's lots of stories where the girl was NOT interested in the guy but he kept at it and she ended up falling for him.

I wouldn't even think to say he manipulated just because she changed his mind. Manipulation comes into play when you use a person's personality, situation/circumstances, fears, motivations and other stuff as a 'carrott' to get them to walk in the direction you want to.

So, to use my example above but change it a bit...

Let's say an ENTP dude notices there's a single mom who's not making ends meet and he uses this knowledge to his advantage. He befriends the woman, 'learns' of her situation 'for the first time', expresses compassion, offers to help, and won't accept any kind of gratitude except a spoken 'thank you'. But later he'll come back and talk about some kind of tough situation, maybe tell a sad story that he used to be the son of a single mom who was barely making ends meet trying to strike a chord with the woman... suddenly he's trying to get her to feel something for him using her situation and what he's done to gain selfishly.. you get my point, right?

Yes there is a difference though especially very charismatic/charming people (I am thinking especially of ENFxs here.) are always walking on a very thin line, are they just winning people over through their natural enthusiasm or do they have ulterior motives behind the smile? I think it doesn't really matter what special skills for manipulation you have been born with but it all depends on the attitude of your heart, if and how you use these skills.

That's why though I am pretty sure I could manipulate well if I put my mind to it I just couldn't do it from a moral point of view, I would feel awful afterwards.

 

[the state i am in]

capable infjs that learn how to maximize Fe like enfps maximize Fi and entps maximize Ti and intjs maximize Te get to be pretty fucking good at long-distance endurance-running course-charting. harmonizing and persuading the social environment. making the right moves, etc.

i'm thinking a combination of gandhi and charles manson (tho i have no idea what type he actually was). with some strong Ti clarifying Ni and making it sound logical and rhetorically persuasive, we can lead in our way. and leading is really what this thread is about.

we feel we have more conscience than entps, bc we have better access to the overall mood and personal values of others (otherness) and we are usually far more 4 and 9. 9 is the best at hearing others, and 4 is the best at dealing with internal contradictions. so we feel privileged as if we alone hold the key to ETHICS. but then you've all met 4s and they're slipping into the most intense self-absorption and wallowing in it in a worse way than you've ever seen and 9s are lashing out in anger from bottling up their frustrations and turning so sour. so what do you do with that?

bc they clash with me most of all, i find 3s to be the most manipulative. image-control and impression-management maxed out. like 8s are the most directly coercive. 7s will be manipulative in that they will get you going without really investing in the end result, but hey, lighten up! 4s just can't seem to get enough love and attention and good loving feelings, love me, love me, etc. 5s are awful at pure fickleness and miserliness that they use to push-pull people about and keep the interaction in their favor (the upper hand!). 6w5 get super defiant and 6w7 gets codependent that flavors and directs their interactions with others and forces them into specific places and situations and response patterns.

 

[sculpting]

Let's say an ENTP dude, for example, notices there's a single mom who's not making ends meet and he uses this knowledge to his advantage. He befriends the woman, 'learns' of her situation 'for the first time', expresses compassion, offers to help, and won't accept any kind of gratitude except a spoken 'thank you'. But later he'll come back and talk about some kind of tough situation, maybe tell a sad story that he used to be the son of a single mom who was barely making ends meet trying to strike a chord with the woman... suddenly he's trying to get her to feel something for him using her situation and what he's done to gain selfishly.. you get my point, right?

odd. This is manipulation, however it would never work on me (as a single mom) as I would refuse assistance in the first place. Or I would quantify the assistance in a very Te specific way and then outline how I would repay the favor. I would recognize the implied obligation inherent in any sort of offering of help and be aware.

Would the above ENTP tactic work effectively on an Fe user?h

 

[the state i am in]

let's say that it is just a series of single objectives that culminates in new opportunities that may or may not be taken as they play out.

ie maybe he recognizes that the person is feeling down and wants to pick the person up, lift spirits, etc. and many later it does remind him of a situation he felt once and he uses that to harmonize the situation and become more confidential, deeply communicative, etc. and let's say she enjoys the feeling and then realizes what a good time she is having. and let's say he notices the slight change in her demeanor as her awareness changes back on herself and how she is feeling and that she is surprised she is feeling this way and he starts probing to get a better reading on the situation. and this is the process of flirtation and her energy already so charged becomes useful in, ahem, different ways, and he decides to go for it.

Ti may be thinking ahead or scheming a couple train-stops down the line or it might not. but this situation is just part of the potential of the situation. Ne and Ti and Fe types are really good at working it. Ni types would symbolize this situation and see how it connects to other situations and probably reject the situation on what it means, what it represents, how cheesy it is, how manipulative it seems externally, what its essence is, etc. tho enfjs are the masters of this far more than entps, who are second, and intps, who are third. 3w4s are the best of all when it comes to this game.

Te is more mastermind manipulative, but it's easier to see coming from a mile away. Ti is much better at adjusting and building step-by-step situations on-the-fly. and the Fe is much more focused on harmonizing the feeling state of the other, creating an emotional objective with the other person's feeling state in mind.

 

[Synarch]

odd. This is manipulation, however it would never work on me (as a single mom) as I would refuse assistance in the first place. Or I would quantify the assistance in a very Te specific way and then outline how I would repay the favor. I would recognize the implied obligation inherent in any sort of offering of help and be aware.

Would the above ENTP tactic work effectively on an Fe user?h

I think an ENTP would be good at determining the appropriate tactic for each person. INFJ's would be good at the genuinely sincere approach (which I think actually makes them more successful with people). ENTP's at the appearance of sincerity in whatever form is required.

I've noticed in working with people that I have a knack for figuring out what each one needs. Some people need encouragement and directness. Some people need you to treat them like a lion tamer. "Back! Back!" Some people need you to treat them like an angry father. Some like a son looking for guidance. Some like a supplicant. Some like a scoundrel.

Set phasers to scan with a wide-band and detect where the secret lever is hidden. Then jiggle it and walk inside.

 

[Wyst]

Ti and Te are different flavors of manipulation. It's essentially the same end-product. How you get there is different.

Synarch has a good point. ENTPs would be more versatile in manipulator in many different situations (different people). Whereas the INFJ's strong suit lays in sincerity/genuine-ness.

For an INFJ to go against that and try to manipulate outside of their strong suit, I think they'd run into the way of, "Ohh, but they might think I was trying to...." INFJs care greatly about having people happy, and prize peace and solace with others. They'll avoid conflict and any paths that could lead to conflict.

So for an INFJ to manipulate selfishly... I think that's one (yes, there's more than one) of their self-destruct buttons.

 

[Synarch]

Ti and Te are different flavors of manipulation. It's essentially the same end-product. How you get there is different.

Synarch has a good point. ENTPs would be more versatile in manipulator in many different situations (different people). Whereas the INFJ's strong suit lays in sincerity/genuine-ness.

For an INFJ to go against that and try to manipulate outside of their strong suit, I think they'd run into the way of, "Ohh, but they might think I was trying to...." INFJs care greatly about having people happy, and prize peace and solace with others. They'll avoid conflict and any paths that could lead to conflict.

So for an INFJ to manipulate selfishly... I think that's one (yes, there's more than one) of their self-destruct buttons.

Interesting.

I think ENTP's are likely to manipulate in a fairly superficial and instrumental fashion, which is unlikely to cause a crisis of conscience. Like, "Let me use my Fe powers to smooth things over and we can both be happy."

Whereas I can see an INFJ agonizing over a manipulation.

 

[Wyst]

Interesting.

I think ENTP's are likely to manipulate in a fairly superficial and instrumental fashion, which is unlikely to cause a crisis of conscience. Like, "Let me use my Fe powers to smooth things over and we can both be happy."

Whereas I can see an INFJ agonizing over a manipulation.

So.. ENTPs, because of their hard, cold hearts toward others and what others going through, do what they need to do to move on without it really being sincere.

Awesome.

INFJs would have trouble doing that, because the inner turmoil/conflict would keep them from being satisfied with that outcome. They'd know that, inside, they haven't really moved on.

It may not be coldly calculated like my post describes but INFJs really have trouble moving forward. They constantly question themselves and others. The need for validation and affirmation ranks very high inside relational priorities.

Here's my interpretation of what you said:

ENTP: "Man, geez, I'm sorry. I could undo this so that we could go back to the way things were. What do I need to do to get us there?"

My point is that there's no sincere apology here. It's driven from more of a "What do I have to do to get you to stop moping, crying, whining, nagging?"

As an INFJ, if I got this kind of manipulative apology it would 1) REALLY hurt 2) I'd feel coerced into forcing myself to move on because I'd be afraid of further angering/irritating them and causing more damage to the relationship. I'd feel very unloved. That's for sure.

 

[Synarch]

I think you're interpretation is wrong.

I actually find that by not loading every interaction with empathy that could be misplaced (strong Fe types can make the most bizarre assumptions) I am free to analyze a given human interaction and determine what is necessary to make everyone feel better. Make sense?

In other words, strong empathy can sometimes make things worse.

 

[Synarch]

Also...

Coldness and reserve does not mean uncaring.

I care more about achieving a result of helping someone than actually commiserating, which has arguable utility in the grand scheme of things and can create emotional dependence. What I really want to do is help people stand on their own.

 

[Wyst]

I think you're interpretation is wrong.

I actually find that by not loading every interaction with empathy that could be misplaced (strong Fe types can make the most bizarre assumptions) I am free to analyze a given human interaction and determine what is necessary to make everyone feel better. Make sense?

In other words, strong empathy can sometimes make things worse.

Also...

Coldness and reserve does not mean uncaring.

I care more about achieving a result of helping someone than actually commiserating, which has arguable utility in the grand scheme of things and can create emotional dependence. What I really want to do is help people stand on their own.

I agree with you.

Too much Fe can loften ead to a lot of 'crazy' in a relationship.
But a complete absence of it lead can lead to neglecting the communication of closeness and intimacy (compassion).

 

[Synarch]

I agree with you.

Too much Fe can often lead to a lot of 'crazy' in a relationship.
But a complete absence of it lead can lead to neglecting the communication of closeness and intimacy (compassion).

Yes, I agree with that for sure. But, too much Fe can also create avoidance on the part of the INFJ who might find themselves drained by too many taxing relationships where they are pouring forth empathy into bottomless souls.

Granted, I do have problems being close with people, so my approach has its downsides. I get short-circuited really easy by heavy emotions to the degree that I have to seek shelter. I find heavy emotion from others to be overwhelming so I do tend to wall up just to weather it.

 

[Wyst]

Yes, I agree with that for sure. But, too much Fe can also create avoidance on the part of the INFJ who might find themselves drained by too many taxing relationships where they are pouring forth empathy into bottomless souls.

Is that how it is? Man, I thought it'd be the other way around with the ENTP wanting to escape because they feel smothered by the INFJ going, "Do you still hate me do you? You really do forgive me? Are you sure??!"

Or wait... do you mean the INFJs are the ones who cause the avoidance?

Granted, I do have problems being close with people, so my approach has its downsides. I get short-circuited really easy by heavy emotions to the degree that I have to seek shelter. I find heavy emotion from others to be overwhelming so I do tend to wall up just to weather it.

Lol - see, we want you to come out and play. Since you ENTPs are all 'bah humbug' we feel like you don't love us. This requires a little manipulation to get the ENTP to come out of their shell.

 

[Synarch]

Dude, I'm like the biggest softie in the world. I'm always the one thinking people hate me. I don't think any of my close friends or my girlfriend would find me aloof that way.

 

[Wyst]

Dude, I'm like the biggest softie in the world. I'm always the one thinking people hate me.

Aaah but what do you do with those thoughts? Do you keep 'em inside, and be the humbug that wants to come out and play? Or do you go right out and get needy?

INFJs love a needy ENTP. It puts everything in perspective for us - that we reign supremely.