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[MBTI General] who're more manipulative? entp or infj

Anja

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May 2, 2008
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INFP
You needn't feel sorry about our values system conflicting. ;)

I don 't "know the details" as you've said. So I can only comment on what I've seen.

What I saw was that you said you don't deliberately manipulate someone to cause them harm.

Then you did just that! An inconsistency either in your statement or in your values system. Yup.

Rogue said you had hurt her in your efforts to avoid a relationship with her and then did it again, publicly, when she again tried to approach you.

You admitted then that you had been hurtful but that she deserved it.

To me that's a conflict in your values system. Think about it.

"I don't hurt anybody, but. . ."

What's the rest of this sentence?

*If they deserve it? (By the way, that's what batterers and people who physically abuse children use for their excuse. Don't think you really want to go there.)

*If I feel unable to handle the situation in any other way?

*When my feelings are unmanageable?

You see what I'm saying?

A careful thinking on your own may help you see the conflict here. No pressure from me. I know plenty of people who lash out when they don't know what else to do and feel satisfied with that. And they have ok lives.

What I saw could have been handled by a pm that stated that you are done with your relationship and then repeating it, if necessary, next it happened again. That would have saved both you and Rogue some dignity.

Just something to consider.

It's a piece of my disappointment. I did expect you to manage this with the grace and humor I've seen before.

I won't lower my expectations just yet. Heh.
 

redacted

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I think the "skilled" INFJs should start leaving tips for honing our powers.

Hahahaha....

I thought I was interpersonally retarded until I got an ENFJ girlfriend at 16 who showed me what I was capable of (ha, sounds hilarious when I say it). Then I realized I had been pretty good already.

It's all about telling the truth. And staying silent strategically.

And, making a good impression on everyone at all times, even if you don't care about them. Because it can come in handy later.

Note: Not a very good way to live life, honestly...it's totally a compulsion. But I at least always win the loyalty game. I can get anyone on my side if I need them.

Trust is built through being honest. And the other person believing you. The best way is to tell the truth, but selectively, because the other person will see that you're being genuine (which you are), so they'll trust you. Even the most "powerful" or "skilled" social visionaries know I tell the truth, because I do.

Don't give anyone a reason not to like you. If you sense that they might start resenting you, call it out right then and explain yourself. Look flustered. Look like you care that they like you (which has to be genuine, even if you don't like them).

Every word you say, every facial expression you make, all of that shit...those are all "moves" in the social game. They should all be profit-maximizing in terms of generating positive feeling towards you (with different weights for different people's feelings, based on how important they are to your long-term strategy).

Strategic aside: it's smart to disagree with people, too, or else they'll suspect you. So you gotta get in little arguments at strategic times -- times when even if you piss people off, it won't matter much in the long term. You don't want to come off as someone who will blindly agree. Also, say your opinions that differ from the norm as long as they aren't too threatening to those around you at the time. And you can't lie. You have to be willing to cause short-term discomfort to those around you, because it's better for your image in the long run.

Also, you have to take stands against certain people -- you have to be fair-minded. You should visibly regret the fact that you have negative sentiments towards someone, but hold your ground against people that have broken a moral code. You don't want to look weak-willed, because then people will know they can walk all over you.

The most important part, though, is -- DO NOT LIE unless you honestly have no other choice. It's basically cheating, and people WILL notice if you make a habit of it. Every emotion you show has to be genuine. You can and should make sure to present them overtly if they're profit-maximizing, and you should downplay them if not.


Anyway, this is not what I recommend, because the pressure you start to feel becomes incredible. But one thing it does do is win you every loyalty battle you get into. My ENTP ex (one of the most manipulative people I've ever met, probably) and I had the same group of friends, all of whom took "my side" after the breakup (even more strongly than I was expecting, or even wanted). I didn't even ask. Even the ones that started out as her friend ended up as mine.

The difference between her strategy and mine is that she's much more focused on the short term. She's way better with strangers than I am. And sometimes she's better in relationships for the first month or two. But she always ends up sacrificing long-term for short-term.


Anyways, that's why I'm kinda leaning towards INFJs being more manipulative than ENTPs (it's basically long-run manipulation vs. short-term). Even the INFJs I know that don't consciously think this way still basically use this strategy, although they'd probably argue with me and play defense if I said so. No point in beating around the bush, though.

I can literally say all of this stuff to any of my friends and the strategy still works perfectly. It's pretty much unbeatable in the long-run.



I know you were probably joking when you asked, but I got inspired.
 

Silent Stars

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If you had just come out of a conflict that was very personal to you, you wouldn't want someone to start telling you what they think you did wrong immediately either.
Actually, I would, so that I would learn from my mistake sooner rather than later.
 

Synarch

Once Was
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Oct 14, 2008
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8,445
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ENTP
HAnyway, this is not what I recommend, because the pressure you start to feel becomes incredible. But one thing it does do is win you every loyalty battle you get into. My ENTP ex (one of the most manipulative people I've ever met, probably) and I had the same group of friends, all of whom took "my side" after the breakup (even more strongly than I was expecting, or even wanted). I didn't even ask. Even the ones that started out as her friend ended up as mine.

The difference between her strategy and mine is that she's much more focused on the short term. She's way better with strangers than I am. And sometimes she's better in relationships for the first month or two. But she always ends up sacrificing long-term for short-term.


Anyways, that's why I'm kinda leaning towards INFJs being more manipulative than ENTPs (it's basically long-run manipulation vs. short-term). Even the INFJs I know that don't consciously think this way still basically use this strategy, although they'd probably argue with me and play defense if I said so. No point in beating around the bush, though.

I can literally say all of this stuff to any of my friends and the strategy still works perfectly. It's pretty much unbeatable in the long-run.

I know you were probably joking when you asked, but I got inspired.

This is good and very true and useful. I would like to see more like this from you.

The thing I would say in defense of the ENTP is that while we do focus on the short-term (actually the NOW) we put our full heart and soul into it. Not only do we get along well with strangers, we don't even get the idea of strangers, as a concept. This is another reason I actually find ENTP / INFJ to be the perfect complement. The ENTP is the face, actively involving others and initiating contact and the INFJ is the home and hearth, bringing people in for long-term involvement. I have seen many ENTP's tend toward selfishness and manipulation, this is why it is important for them to be honest and forthright.
 

digesthisickness

✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿
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i never burn a bridge that i may need in any capacity whatsoever in the future, ever, unless i'm positive that it will never be necessary again. then, and only then, will i bomb that fucker.
 

Synarch

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i never burn a bridge that i may need in any capacity whatsoever in the future, ever, unless i'm positive that it will never be necessary again. then, and only then, will i bomb that fucker.

I love when ENTP's get metal. +1
 
V

violaine

Guest
In my head I have a mental image of the INFJ picking up a person as if they are a new toy, and inspecting it from all different angles. The INFJ then presses various buttons, but does it oh-so-gently. They want to get enough response to gain viable information, but do not want to disturb the toy... or to be noticed. They then extrapolate this information (if I press here harder, the toy will probably do this) to learn how to probably play nicely with the toy, or make it do what they want it to do without breaking it.

Any of that ring true?

That is what I'm like irl, (but I don't like the connotation of toy :)). I never push here or there for response other than information. I am information gathering from many different angles and want to go unnoticed as you say. I am genuinely very interested in people in general, but more specifically their motivations. I ask a lot of questions and things unfold quite easily. I also enjoy building warm relationships with other people. But it's mostly about figuring out someone's motivations to better understand them and people in general. (I have 'pushed buttons' in relationships with all but one person.)

I've never seen giving people guidance or steering them in a certain direction as manipulation. Because if I'm doing this, it's because someone came to me and asked for my input. I always think of manipulation as twisting someone to bend to your will, usually without them knowing it. I think INFJs mostly want people to find their own potential, and hopefully use that potential toward some kind of greater good. (Fruitless goal, I know).

Yes, this is it exactly. INFJ can see a person's potential very easily too.

I think it's easy though for INFJ's to pick up people in bad relationships or on the rebound, simply because we're so supportive. But I don't recommend doing this because the relationship is not being built on a strong foundation.

I have tended to become involved with men who aren't really suitable for relationships because they have been complex and we have bonded and before you know it, there you are in a relationship. :doh: Though I have yet to really regret any of them. I have learned so much through them.

i never burn a bridge that i may need in any capacity whatsoever in the future, ever, unless i'm positive that it will never be necessary again. then, and only then, will i bomb that fucker.

LOL, awesome.
 

redacted

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4,223
i never burn a bridge that i may need in any capacity whatsoever in the future, ever, unless i'm positive that it will never be necessary again. then, and only then, will i bomb that fucker.

Yeah, I shouldn't have generalized to all ENTPs and INFJs, I should've just kept it anecdotal.

Although I'm sure my ex would say the same thing as you (and be wrong). lol.
 

digesthisickness

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Yeah, I shouldn't have generalized to all ENTPs and INFJs, I should've just kept it anecdotal.

Although I'm sure my ex would say the same thing as you (and be wrong). lol.

yeah, well, she may be wrong when she says it, but i know me, so i'm not.
 

MacGuffin

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INFJ.

Simply by being NF.

As I wrote at INTPc around the time this forum opened:

NFs operate from a value set. If they have good intentions, then the actions resulting from those good intentions cannot be bad.

Ergo, they are manipulative even when they don't believe they are. I appreciate ByMySword for being so self-aware.

P.S. I :heart: NFs
 
R

Riva

Guest
So wait, is this thread trying to state that INFJ's are more manipulative than other types, or just manipulative, period?

Well, since all types have their ways of getting what they want, I think it's safe to say that they are all manipulative.

But I don't see any evidence that INFJ's are more manipulative than other types. I'm usually upfront and honest with people if I want something from them. I'm not "actively" manipulative, I would rather put my energy into other things.

i believe that ENTPs are the master schemers and manipulators. they are like Satan tryin to feed you a forbidden fruit. they will go a very long way without ever getting caught by their actions, and they are very hard to predict.

BUT, they have that, "i am sneaky and manipulative" look to themselves.

like Garak in star trek DS9, or satan in passion of the christ.

BUT, infjs dont. but they are equally manipulative but in a silent manner. makin them harder to be caught and to doubt.
 

Anja

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i believe that ENTPs are the master schemers and manipulators. they are like Satan tryin to feed you a forbidden fruit. they will go a very long way without ever getting caught by their actions, and they are very hard to predict.

BUT, they have that, "i am sneaky and manipulative" look to themselves.

like Garak in star trek DS9, or satan in passion of the christ.

BUT, infjs dont. but they are equally manipulative but in a silent manner. makin them harder to be caught and to doubt.

It's nearly impossible to talk about this without generalizing because of the way the question is framed.

But I laughed when I read this. It's so right on. Know exactly what you mean. A manipulative INFJ seems friendly and a manipulative ENTP has "Beware!" written all over him.

But I don't know if that quality makes either of them the more skilled once a person can recognize the manipulation style.
 

redacted

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But I laughed when I read this. It's so right on. Know exactly what you mean. A manipulative INFJ seems friendly and a manipulative ENTP has "Beware!" written all over him.

But I don't know if that quality makes either of them the more skilled once a person can recognize the manipulation style.

This is just me, but I literally talk about my manipulation style to my friends and it still works perfectly. In fact, talking about it is part of my manipulation because I figure they'll have that opinion anyway. So they appreciate my honesty and I lose nothing :)

When my ex talks about her manipulation style, it tends to turn people off because it comes off as much more scheming and calculated, even though it isn't. The sense of warmth, genuine-ness, and "being a good person at heart" end up giving the INFJ the advantage in the long term, or at least it gives them a head start. The ENTP can still "win" by outplaying the INFJ, but with equal "skill", the INFJ has a bit of a head start.

Plus, EPs just tend to be more likely to "let go" than IJs, which is when mistakes are made.
 

Udog

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All you have to do is watch how they hard boil an egg.

The INFJ will carefully select a pot, meticulously check that the water doesn't have any harmful impurities that will mess with the boiling, ensure the egg is clean, and then set the stove to a moderate temperature that will boil the egg slowly. Then they will patiently wait for the egg to cook, being very careful it doesn't get overdone.

On the other hand, ENTPs grab a flamethrower and have at it.

:D
 

Synarch

Once Was
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All you have to do is watch how they hard boil an egg.

The INFJ will carefully select a pot, meticulously check that the water doesn't have any harmful impurities that will mess with the boiling, ensure the egg is clean, and then set the stove to a moderate temperature that will boil the egg slowly. Then they will patiently wait for the egg to cook, being very careful it doesn't get overdone.

On the other hand, ENTPs grab a flamethrower and have at it.

:D

Yea, pretty much. +1
 
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