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  1. #251
    lurking.... Wyst's Avatar
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    Ti and Te are different flavors of manipulation. It's essentially the same end-product. How you get there is different.

    Synarch has a good point. ENTPs would be more versatile in manipulator in many different situations (different people). Whereas the INFJ's strong suit lays in sincerity/genuine-ness.

    For an INFJ to go against that and try to manipulate outside of their strong suit, I think they'd run into the way of, "Ohh, but they might think I was trying to...." INFJs care greatly about having people happy, and prize peace and solace with others. They'll avoid conflict and any paths that could lead to conflict.

    So for an INFJ to manipulate selfishly... I think that's one (yes, there's more than one) of their self-destruct buttons.

  2. #252
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyst View Post
    Ti and Te are different flavors of manipulation. It's essentially the same end-product. How you get there is different.

    Synarch has a good point. ENTPs would be more versatile in manipulator in many different situations (different people). Whereas the INFJ's strong suit lays in sincerity/genuine-ness.

    For an INFJ to go against that and try to manipulate outside of their strong suit, I think they'd run into the way of, "Ohh, but they might think I was trying to...." INFJs care greatly about having people happy, and prize peace and solace with others. They'll avoid conflict and any paths that could lead to conflict.

    So for an INFJ to manipulate selfishly... I think that's one (yes, there's more than one) of their self-destruct buttons.
    Interesting.

    I think ENTP's are likely to manipulate in a fairly superficial and instrumental fashion, which is unlikely to cause a crisis of conscience. Like, "Let me use my Fe powers to smooth things over and we can both be happy."

    Whereas I can see an INFJ agonizing over a manipulation.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  3. #253
    lurking.... Wyst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    Interesting.

    I think ENTP's are likely to manipulate in a fairly superficial and instrumental fashion, which is unlikely to cause a crisis of conscience. Like, "Let me use my Fe powers to smooth things over and we can both be happy."

    Whereas I can see an INFJ agonizing over a manipulation.
    So.. ENTPs, because of their hard, cold hearts toward others and what others going through, do what they need to do to move on without it really being sincere.

    Awesome.

    INFJs would have trouble doing that, because the inner turmoil/conflict would keep them from being satisfied with that outcome. They'd know that, inside, they haven't really moved on.

    It may not be coldly calculated like my post describes but INFJs really have trouble moving forward. They constantly question themselves and others. The need for validation and affirmation ranks very high inside relational priorities.

    Here's my interpretation of what you said:

    ENTP: "Man, geez, I'm sorry. I could undo this so that we could go back to the way things were. What do I need to do to get us there?"

    My point is that there's no sincere apology here. It's driven from more of a "What do I have to do to get you to stop moping, crying, whining, nagging?"

    As an INFJ, if I got this kind of manipulative apology it would 1) REALLY hurt 2) I'd feel coerced into forcing myself to move on because I'd be afraid of further angering/irritating them and causing more damage to the relationship. I'd feel very unloved. That's for sure.

  4. #254
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    I think you're interpretation is wrong.

    I actually find that by not loading every interaction with empathy that could be misplaced (strong Fe types can make the most bizarre assumptions) I am free to analyze a given human interaction and determine what is necessary to make everyone feel better. Make sense?

    In other words, strong empathy can sometimes make things worse.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  5. #255
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Also...

    Coldness and reserve does not mean uncaring.

    I care more about achieving a result of helping someone than actually commiserating, which has arguable utility in the grand scheme of things and can create emotional dependence. What I really want to do is help people stand on their own.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  6. #256
    lurking.... Wyst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    I think you're interpretation is wrong.

    I actually find that by not loading every interaction with empathy that could be misplaced (strong Fe types can make the most bizarre assumptions) I am free to analyze a given human interaction and determine what is necessary to make everyone feel better. Make sense?

    In other words, strong empathy can sometimes make things worse.
    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    Also...

    Coldness and reserve does not mean uncaring.

    I care more about achieving a result of helping someone than actually commiserating, which has arguable utility in the grand scheme of things and can create emotional dependence. What I really want to do is help people stand on their own.

    I agree with you.

    Too much Fe can loften ead to a lot of 'crazy' in a relationship.
    But a complete absence of it lead can lead to neglecting the communication of closeness and intimacy (compassion).

  7. #257
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyst View Post
    I agree with you.

    Too much Fe can often lead to a lot of 'crazy' in a relationship.
    But a complete absence of it lead can lead to neglecting the communication of closeness and intimacy (compassion).
    Yes, I agree with that for sure. But, too much Fe can also create avoidance on the part of the INFJ who might find themselves drained by too many taxing relationships where they are pouring forth empathy into bottomless souls.

    Granted, I do have problems being close with people, so my approach has its downsides. I get short-circuited really easy by heavy emotions to the degree that I have to seek shelter. I find heavy emotion from others to be overwhelming so I do tend to wall up just to weather it.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  8. #258
    lurking.... Wyst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    Yes, I agree with that for sure. But, too much Fe can also create avoidance on the part of the INFJ who might find themselves drained by too many taxing relationships where they are pouring forth empathy into bottomless souls.
    Is that how it is? Man, I thought it'd be the other way around with the ENTP wanting to escape because they feel smothered by the INFJ going, "Do you still hate me do you? You really do forgive me? Are you sure??!"

    Or wait... do you mean the INFJs are the ones who cause the avoidance?

    Granted, I do have problems being close with people, so my approach has its downsides. I get short-circuited really easy by heavy emotions to the degree that I have to seek shelter. I find heavy emotion from others to be overwhelming so I do tend to wall up just to weather it.
    Lol - see, we want you to come out and play. Since you ENTPs are all 'bah humbug' we feel like you don't love us. This requires a little manipulation to get the ENTP to come out of their shell.

  9. #259
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Dude, I'm like the biggest softie in the world. I'm always the one thinking people hate me. I don't think any of my close friends or my girlfriend would find me aloof that way.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  10. #260
    lurking.... Wyst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    Dude, I'm like the biggest softie in the world. I'm always the one thinking people hate me.
    Aaah but what do you do with those thoughts? Do you keep 'em inside, and be the humbug that wants to come out and play? Or do you go right out and get needy?

    INFJs love a needy ENTP. It puts everything in perspective for us - that we reign supremely.

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