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  1. #151
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Well, I think (this is on the fly here and I may be wrong) that some people interact with other people for the pleasure of their company and don't seek to change anything. That is not manipulative.

    A manipulative person might seek a friend out for the pleasure of his intellect and then decide he should go to school and be a brilliant student, so manipulator starts gathering funds and begins to gently shape conversations meant to point their friend in that direction.
    That is manipulation.

    Manipulation is when you decide to change someone's life, or at least alter their course.

  2. #152
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Well, I think (this is on the fly here and I may be wrong) that some people interact with other people for the pleasure of their company and don't seek to change anything. That is not manipulative.

    A manipulative person might seek a friend out for the pleasure of his intellect and then decide he should go to school and be a brilliant student, so manipulator starts gathering funds and begins to gently shape conversations meant to point their friend in that direction.
    That is manipulation.

    Manipulation is when you decide to change someone's life, or at least alter their course.
    So if you're not consciously trying to change someone's life, but take the exact same actions that someone would take if they were conscious of it, you're not manipulative?

    I don't think it has to be conscious to be manipulative.

  3. #153
    Riva
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Well, I think (this is on the fly here and I may be wrong) that some people interact with other people for the pleasure of their company and don't seek to change anything. That is not manipulative.

    A manipulative person might seek a friend out for the pleasure of his intellect and then decide he should go to school and be a brilliant student, so manipulator starts gathering funds and begins to gently shape conversations meant to point their friend in that direction.
    That is manipulation.

    Manipulation is when you decide to change someone's life, or at least alter their course.
    in a way yes.

  4. #154
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evan View Post
    There are always motives for being honest.
    Of course, although my motives usually fall in the line of 'I'd feel guilty if I wasn't honest' instead of 'I have to build trust so I have leverage to affect their behavior later'.

    This isn't to criticize your perspective, though. It's the toolset that INFJs often use to be as awesome as they generally are. It's important to realize that such methods are usually used for good, not just bad.

  5. #155
    ByMySword
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    What I saw was that you said you don't deliberately manipulate someone to cause them harm.

    Then you did just that! An inconsistency either in your statement or in your values system. Yup.
    Um...when did I manipulate someone on here?

    Rogue said you had hurt her in your efforts to avoid a relationship with her and then did it again, publicly, when she again tried to approach you.
    No, she directly insulted my initial post and then accused me of doing the same thing to her in an insulting manner.

    You admitted then that you had been hurtful but that she deserved it.
    Whether it was done privately or publicly, she did deserve it. If she had approached me privately, I would have been even more considerate in the matter. The fact that she addressed me publicly was the final straw.

    To me that's a conflict in your values system. Think about it.

    "I don't hurt anybody, but. . ."

    What's the rest of this sentence?
    My statement was that I don't intentionally hurt someone I CARE ABOUT when manipulating them.

    Even people I have no emotional connection to I don't intentionally harm. The only people that I use harmful manipulation on would be my enemies or people I don't like.

    Rogue is neither of those.

    And if you think thats a conflict in my values system, then you clearly don't know me. I always make sure to reconcile my values with my actions. Otherwise, I would never act at all.

    *If they deserve it? (By the way, that's what batterers and people who physically abuse children use for their excuse. Don't think you really want to go there.)
    You don't want to go there either. Comparing me to child abusers is going too far Anja. Seriously.

    *If I feel unable to handle the situation in any other way?
    I really hate society's views on anger and violence. They're always seen as directly ignorant, when they're really not.

    Anger, first of all is an emotion, granted, an emotion that must be controlled. But I don't think letting someone know you're angry is necessarily a bad thing.

    Violence is just a tool to be used when diplomacy fails.

    I know plenty of people who lash out when they don't know what else to do and feel satisfied with that. And they have ok lives.
    Here's what no one fails to understand. This whole thing with Rogue HAS been going on for a long time. Months, in fact.

    She's been pushing me and pushing me with her rants via e-mail and pm. And I've been very patient with her, always catering to her needs, and calming her down to avoid a confrontation. I've never lashed out at her, ever.

    Her public post went too far. She brought a personal conflict to a public forum, and that was unacceptable. But she called it, and thats how I played it. There's nothing else to say. It was time for that to end.

    What I saw could have been handled by a pm that stated that you are done with your relationship and then repeating it, if necessary, next it happened again. That would have saved both you and Rogue some dignity.
    What relationship? Has anyone forgotten that she's married?

    And also, the friendship was never over. Its just if I missed one e-mail or pm, then I'd get one the next day with her flipping out on me for no reason!!! I miss one e-mail and all of a sudden I must not like her anymore. I'm seriously not exaggerating.

    Its very stressful to associate with somone like that.

    I don't feel that my dignity was in danger at all. There were plenty of people on here who agreed with me.

    A PM would have solved everything. But that wasn't for me to decide. Rogue made the initial post, as I've said above. The whole thing didn't have to happen.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again. Hindsight is 20/20. If I knew then what I know now, I would have handled it differently. But judging where I was at the time, what I knew of the situation, and the mood I was already in, I can't fault myself for acting the way I did. I apologize for hurting anyone, but not for the action itself. Sorry.

    It's a piece of my disappointment. I did expect you to manage this with the grace and humor I've seen before.
    Well, usually I would have. The initial post that caused so much debate was a peice of that humor, till people made it into something big.

    And if you notice, all the posts responding to the people before Rogue's initial post were posted with the goal of continuing for the most part that same fun sarcasm. It was her post that got me all riled up, and probably only because of our past interactions.

    It was not my preference to display it to the world.

    I won't lower my expectations just yet. Heh.
    The only person's expectations I'm trying to meet are my own.

    If they happen to coincide with yours, then great, I'm happy to call you a friend.

    If not, then thats fine with me too.

  6. #156
    ByMySword
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silent Stars View Post
    Actually, I would, so that I would learn from my mistake sooner rather than later.
    Really? You'd listen objectively even though you'd still be caught up in the moment? I highly doubt that.

    I've said the same thing before till it happened to me. Then I understand a little bit better.

  7. #157
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    The issue with you and Rogue and the fact that you have people agreeing with you aren't the issue that I'm talking about, BMS. How other people act is NEVER the issue. How we act or react is where the value lies.

    We can always find someone to back us up if we feel we need others to reinforce our viewpoint. Means nothing. Groupthink. (Not saying it isn't okay to have a pal around, you know. )

    The issue with Rogue is valuable to you and you only. The reason? A chance to learn something about yourself which may later prove worthwhile in living your life free of entanglements.

    You are so busy defending and explaining yourself that you appear unable to "hear" what I have to say. 'sokay.

    I don't think you're a bad guy and I haven't had the intention of putting you down or prevailing over you. That's a waste of my time.

    I offered a few observations and the time is not right for you at the moment to take them in.

    I'll drop it with goodwill on my part and I regret that it has become uncomfortable for you.

    I'll also add that we are usually uncomfortable when we are asked to stretch a bit and that's how we grow in confidence and self-understanding. You were offered only my perspective and if it truly doesn't fit, then toss it. Maybe it was useful to someone else.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  8. #158
    ByMySword
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    Fine, I'm going to the Gun Thread.

    The only place I'm truly appreciated.

  9. #159
    Senior Member Silent Stars's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ByMySword View Post
    Really? You'd listen objectively even though you'd still be caught up in the moment? I highly doubt that.

    I've said the same thing before till it happened to me. Then I understand a little bit better.
    No, that's how I am. Even in extreme situations, my emotions never get out of control (such as being physically threatened by my step-dad, who is a big guy and much stronger than I am, getting up in my face and yelling and whatnot), and I'm always able to think clearly. In the extremely unlikely chance that I actually do get a little angry, I never take it out on anyone, and I just find something else to focus on until it goes away, which doesn't take very long. I might talk about it with a few of my friends, but no matter what anyone does to me, I have no reason to get back at them. I've had plenty of opportunities to get back at some girls who treated me very poorly (even fairly recently), but I chose not to use them because I still respect and love them just the same as everyone else, and that is saying quite a lot because I just care about people very much. I do not wish to ever hurt anyone for any reason.

    Sure, I know most people would have a hard time doing that, but for me, it requires very little effort, if any. That's just how I naturally handle things, and honestly, I'm really thankful for it. I don't fault anyone for not being that way, though, but it certainly doesn't hurt to try.

  10. #160
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    Oopsie, prpl. I wasn't referring to you directly. I could have taken time to preface the statement and didn't think to.

    I was in thought of how people can sometimes say things in all honesty and it can be a truthful statement but the underlying intention is something different than how it appears.

    Or it can be used as a defense after exposing something about one's self that suddenly looks to the speaker like a mistake. Like an effort to turn a negative into a positive.

    I thought I saw that earlier in the thread.

    No harm meant.
    I know, i replied that for me it wasn't. it's like when I say someone reminds me of someone else it's not to flirt...it's because they do.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

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