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  1. #121
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    You needn't feel sorry about our values system conflicting.

    I don 't "know the details" as you've said. So I can only comment on what I've seen.

    What I saw was that you said you don't deliberately manipulate someone to cause them harm.

    Then you did just that! An inconsistency either in your statement or in your values system. Yup.

    Rogue said you had hurt her in your efforts to avoid a relationship with her and then did it again, publicly, when she again tried to approach you.

    You admitted then that you had been hurtful but that she deserved it.

    To me that's a conflict in your values system. Think about it.

    "I don't hurt anybody, but. . ."

    What's the rest of this sentence?

    *If they deserve it? (By the way, that's what batterers and people who physically abuse children use for their excuse. Don't think you really want to go there.)

    *If I feel unable to handle the situation in any other way?

    *When my feelings are unmanageable?

    You see what I'm saying?

    A careful thinking on your own may help you see the conflict here. No pressure from me. I know plenty of people who lash out when they don't know what else to do and feel satisfied with that. And they have ok lives.

    What I saw could have been handled by a pm that stated that you are done with your relationship and then repeating it, if necessary, next it happened again. That would have saved both you and Rogue some dignity.

    Just something to consider.

    It's a piece of my disappointment. I did expect you to manage this with the grace and humor I've seen before.

    I won't lower my expectations just yet. Heh.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  2. #122
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by karenk View Post
    I think the "skilled" INFJs should start leaving tips for honing our powers.
    Hahahaha....

    I thought I was interpersonally retarded until I got an ENFJ girlfriend at 16 who showed me what I was capable of (ha, sounds hilarious when I say it). Then I realized I had been pretty good already.

    It's all about telling the truth. And staying silent strategically.

    And, making a good impression on everyone at all times, even if you don't care about them. Because it can come in handy later.

    Note: Not a very good way to live life, honestly...it's totally a compulsion. But I at least always win the loyalty game. I can get anyone on my side if I need them.

    Trust is built through being honest. And the other person believing you. The best way is to tell the truth, but selectively, because the other person will see that you're being genuine (which you are), so they'll trust you. Even the most "powerful" or "skilled" social visionaries know I tell the truth, because I do.

    Don't give anyone a reason not to like you. If you sense that they might start resenting you, call it out right then and explain yourself. Look flustered. Look like you care that they like you (which has to be genuine, even if you don't like them).

    Every word you say, every facial expression you make, all of that shit...those are all "moves" in the social game. They should all be profit-maximizing in terms of generating positive feeling towards you (with different weights for different people's feelings, based on how important they are to your long-term strategy).

    Strategic aside: it's smart to disagree with people, too, or else they'll suspect you. So you gotta get in little arguments at strategic times -- times when even if you piss people off, it won't matter much in the long term. You don't want to come off as someone who will blindly agree. Also, say your opinions that differ from the norm as long as they aren't too threatening to those around you at the time. And you can't lie. You have to be willing to cause short-term discomfort to those around you, because it's better for your image in the long run.

    Also, you have to take stands against certain people -- you have to be fair-minded. You should visibly regret the fact that you have negative sentiments towards someone, but hold your ground against people that have broken a moral code. You don't want to look weak-willed, because then people will know they can walk all over you.

    The most important part, though, is -- DO NOT LIE unless you honestly have no other choice. It's basically cheating, and people WILL notice if you make a habit of it. Every emotion you show has to be genuine. You can and should make sure to present them overtly if they're profit-maximizing, and you should downplay them if not.


    Anyway, this is not what I recommend, because the pressure you start to feel becomes incredible. But one thing it does do is win you every loyalty battle you get into. My ENTP ex (one of the most manipulative people I've ever met, probably) and I had the same group of friends, all of whom took "my side" after the breakup (even more strongly than I was expecting, or even wanted). I didn't even ask. Even the ones that started out as her friend ended up as mine.

    The difference between her strategy and mine is that she's much more focused on the short term. She's way better with strangers than I am. And sometimes she's better in relationships for the first month or two. But she always ends up sacrificing long-term for short-term.


    Anyways, that's why I'm kinda leaning towards INFJs being more manipulative than ENTPs (it's basically long-run manipulation vs. short-term). Even the INFJs I know that don't consciously think this way still basically use this strategy, although they'd probably argue with me and play defense if I said so. No point in beating around the bush, though.

    I can literally say all of this stuff to any of my friends and the strategy still works perfectly. It's pretty much unbeatable in the long-run.



    I know you were probably joking when you asked, but I got inspired.

  3. #123
    Senior Member Silent Stars's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ByMySword View Post
    If you had just come out of a conflict that was very personal to you, you wouldn't want someone to start telling you what they think you did wrong immediately either.
    Actually, I would, so that I would learn from my mistake sooner rather than later.

  4. #124
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evan View Post
    HAnyway, this is not what I recommend, because the pressure you start to feel becomes incredible. But one thing it does do is win you every loyalty battle you get into. My ENTP ex (one of the most manipulative people I've ever met, probably) and I had the same group of friends, all of whom took "my side" after the breakup (even more strongly than I was expecting, or even wanted). I didn't even ask. Even the ones that started out as her friend ended up as mine.

    The difference between her strategy and mine is that she's much more focused on the short term. She's way better with strangers than I am. And sometimes she's better in relationships for the first month or two. But she always ends up sacrificing long-term for short-term.


    Anyways, that's why I'm kinda leaning towards INFJs being more manipulative than ENTPs (it's basically long-run manipulation vs. short-term). Even the INFJs I know that don't consciously think this way still basically use this strategy, although they'd probably argue with me and play defense if I said so. No point in beating around the bush, though.

    I can literally say all of this stuff to any of my friends and the strategy still works perfectly. It's pretty much unbeatable in the long-run.

    I know you were probably joking when you asked, but I got inspired.
    This is good and very true and useful. I would like to see more like this from you.

    The thing I would say in defense of the ENTP is that while we do focus on the short-term (actually the NOW) we put our full heart and soul into it. Not only do we get along well with strangers, we don't even get the idea of strangers, as a concept. This is another reason I actually find ENTP / INFJ to be the perfect complement. The ENTP is the face, actively involving others and initiating contact and the INFJ is the home and hearth, bringing people in for long-term involvement. I have seen many ENTP's tend toward selfishness and manipulation, this is why it is important for them to be honest and forthright.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by evan View Post
    I know you were probably joking when you asked, but I got inspired.
    No, I really did want some advice...ha....and thank you.

  6. #126
    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ digesthisickness's Avatar
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    i never burn a bridge that i may need in any capacity whatsoever in the future, ever, unless i'm positive that it will never be necessary again. then, and only then, will i bomb that fucker.
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  7. #127
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by digesthisickness View Post
    i never burn a bridge that i may need in any capacity whatsoever in the future, ever, unless i'm positive that it will never be necessary again. then, and only then, will i bomb that fucker.
    I love when ENTP's get metal. +1
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    In my head I have a mental image of the INFJ picking up a person as if they are a new toy, and inspecting it from all different angles. The INFJ then presses various buttons, but does it oh-so-gently. They want to get enough response to gain viable information, but do not want to disturb the toy... or to be noticed. They then extrapolate this information (if I press here harder, the toy will probably do this) to learn how to probably play nicely with the toy, or make it do what they want it to do without breaking it.

    Any of that ring true?
    That is what I'm like irl, (but I don't like the connotation of toy ). I never push here or there for response other than information. I am information gathering from many different angles and want to go unnoticed as you say. I am genuinely very interested in people in general, but more specifically their motivations. I ask a lot of questions and things unfold quite easily. I also enjoy building warm relationships with other people. But it's mostly about figuring out someone's motivations to better understand them and people in general. (I have 'pushed buttons' in relationships with all but one person.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
    I've never seen giving people guidance or steering them in a certain direction as manipulation. Because if I'm doing this, it's because someone came to me and asked for my input. I always think of manipulation as twisting someone to bend to your will, usually without them knowing it. I think INFJs mostly want people to find their own potential, and hopefully use that potential toward some kind of greater good. (Fruitless goal, I know).
    Yes, this is it exactly. INFJ can see a person's potential very easily too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
    I think it's easy though for INFJ's to pick up people in bad relationships or on the rebound, simply because we're so supportive. But I don't recommend doing this because the relationship is not being built on a strong foundation.
    I have tended to become involved with men who aren't really suitable for relationships because they have been complex and we have bonded and before you know it, there you are in a relationship. Though I have yet to really regret any of them. I have learned so much through them.

    Quote Originally Posted by digesthisickness View Post
    i never burn a bridge that i may need in any capacity whatsoever in the future, ever, unless i'm positive that it will never be necessary again. then, and only then, will i bomb that fucker.
    LOL, awesome.

  9. #129
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by digesthisickness View Post
    i never burn a bridge that i may need in any capacity whatsoever in the future, ever, unless i'm positive that it will never be necessary again. then, and only then, will i bomb that fucker.
    Yeah, I shouldn't have generalized to all ENTPs and INFJs, I should've just kept it anecdotal.

    Although I'm sure my ex would say the same thing as you (and be wrong). lol.

  10. #130
    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ digesthisickness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evan View Post
    Yeah, I shouldn't have generalized to all ENTPs and INFJs, I should've just kept it anecdotal.

    Although I'm sure my ex would say the same thing as you (and be wrong). lol.
    yeah, well, she may be wrong when she says it, but i know me, so i'm not.
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