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  1. #111
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Nothing more to offer here but came back to see what's been said after my post.

    I can offer some observation about what's transpired and will keep it balanced because I see no cause for blame from either faction. Some of what happened is reaction to personal experience and it appears others may have picked up on that and added their own strong feelings from some experience they have had to the mix.

    It's easy to get sucked into this kind of miscommunication from the heart. Made me kinda sad as I don't see any bad guys here and I think everyone began feeling frustrated and confused about what went wrong.

    I was also shocked, BMS, by some of your statements. I've read you for several months now and see you as an honorable person. The way you worded your experiences sounded like taking advantage of others.

    I think you will think about this some and realize that you had slipped into a mode of thinking which may not match your true values. That's very easy to do if you've been hanging with guys that devalue their relationships with women. Maybe you'd just been stuck for a while in a mode that isn't really you?

    If you take an honest look at what you said about not wanting to influence others for harm and then the violation of your personal value in doing just that for everyone to see, you can see how others may mistrust your integrity.

    We all make this mistake at times. Keep plugging away at making your behavior consistently match your values and it will happen less often. You strike me as someone who is in the process.

    And we are all in process of becoming our ultimate realization of self. Recognizing and owning, without excuse or explanation, when we make an error helps keep us on track.

    You may grow no further than a "tit for tat" mentality and that will probably still be sufficient for a satisfying life. My guess is that you would prefer to elevate yourself beyond that position.

    Maybe some of the judgementalism towards BMS's statements could have been lightened by asking a few more questions about intention. It truly is unfortunate when someone takes the risk to be honest about their less savory side only to get bombarded.

    I've had it happen before and it feels pretty nasty.

    What works? Honest statements. Reflective and questioning responses.

    Take the judgementalism out of the interaction and it reads in a less painful way.

    The personal issue between BMS and Rogue is something else and really didn't belong in a public conversation from my perspective. Boundaries!

    Hope this post is useful.

    I've been thinking about boundaries and the large number of people here who state that they trust few people. I think the reason is boundaries. When you don't have them you open yourself up to painful experiences which cause you not to trust.

    A final comment regarding what, I think it was, Sanveanne said about manipulating others. Can't paraphrase it but it reminded me of the sympathy I sometimes feel for my mom who spent her whole life manipulating others to get her needs met.

    One day it dawned on me that by her under-handedly getting her needs met, because she didn't trust others enough to do it because they loved her, she actually cheated herself out of ever knowing that she was truly loved for herself. Somewhere in her mind must have always resided that doubt, "But they only just did it because I manipulated them into doing it."

    That is the true personal tragedy of manipulation.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  2. #112
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
    I've never seen giving people guidance or steering them in a certain direction as manipulation. Because if I'm doing this, it's because someone came to me and asked for my input. I always think of manipulation as twisting someone to bend to your will, usually without them knowing it. I think INFJs mostly want people to find their own potential, and hopefully use that potential toward some kind of greater good. (Fruitless goal, I know).
    Agreed. The comment earlier about counselors manipulating people into decisions which are good for them would be erroneous from a standard of professionalism.

    A good counselor points out pros and cons and guides in what they think may be the most healthy directon for the person. The counselor's own personal gain needs to be set aside for the needs of the client.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  3. #113
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Supposedly "objective" people trying to defend themselves aside, I've also noticed that although very similar, it seems as if INTJ's don't do much manipulating at all. They seem to have a very direct way of getting what they want, from the small amount I've observed. If someone comes to them for advice, they might be a bit nicer and smoother about it, but they seem to just state things very black and white.. like things are very simple from their objective viewpoint in comparison to INFJ's who approach it with a very puzzle-like mindset.

    ENFPs... I think we're definitely capable of being successful manipulators.

    I wish I had more input for ENTPs to add though.
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  4. #114
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beyondaurora View Post

    For one, by definition you cannot "manipulate" someone into doing something they want.
    I don't agree with this at all. Many times people know what they want they just aren't willing to do it without being convinced. Sometimes this has to be done in a manipulative manner. So what? People overestimate manipulation. Manipulation is like curling (the ice version), not football. We're not talking about brute coercion here.

    On another note, I can see how some people would have interpreted his post as really negative, but I'm familiar with the details and it's not that bad.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  5. #115
    Senior Member Kyrielle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldanen View Post
    INFJs can be extremely good at inciting flames and emotional drama with their Fe. ENTPs are generally more innocent and can't hide their true motivations as much. Although I hesitate to say anything absolutely.
    Only when it seems neccessary to do so. More often than not I end up trying to put out drama flames. Though, there have been times when I felt particularly spiteful and caused trouble for no decent reason. Those moments are few and far between and I have to be under some serious consistent stress for that to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    In my head I have a mental image of the INFJ picking up a person as if they are a new toy, and inspecting it from all different angles. The INFJ then presses various buttons, but does it oh-so-gently. They want to get enough response to gain viable information, but do not want to disturb the toy... or to be noticed. They then extrapolate this information (if I press here harder, the toy will probably do this) to learn how to probably play nicely with the toy, or make it do what they want it to do without breaking it.

    Any of that ring true?
    Sounds about right.
    "I took the one less traveled by,
    And that has made all the difference."

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  6. #116
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Maybe the ENTP should collect INFJ minions to use their Ni? I think an INFJ / ENTP therapeutic team would be interesting.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  7. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silent Stars View Post
    I see nothing wrong with anything I said; there's nothing to apologize for. If he doesn't want to be criticized ever, he shouldn't be posting on an internet forum. I had every right to comment on what he said. I was not attacking him, so there is no problem with the points I brought up. I tend to forget that not everyone is as objective as I am when things get heated, hence the misunderstanding on his part.
    It has nothing to do with being objective.

    If you had just come out of a conflict that was very personal to you, you wouldn't want someone to start telling you what they think you did wrong immediately either.

    I have no problem with being objective, but that was the wrong time for it. I wasn't in the mood. Hence, I took your criticism as personal rather than constructive.

    Hindsight is 20/20.

    I think its sad that one has to be careful about being honest.

  8. #118
    ByMySword
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    On another note, I can see how some people would have interpreted his post as really negative, but I'm familiar with the details and it's not that bad.
    No, it really isn't. lol

  9. #119
    ByMySword
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    I was also shocked, BMS, by some of your statements. I've read you for several months now and see you as an honorable person. The way you worded your experiences sounded like taking advantage of others.
    I can understand that. But when I tried to explain further, I wasn't allowed to, really. I was met with judgement and criticism.

    I think you will think about this some and realize that you had slipped into a mode of thinking which may not match your true values. That's very easy to do if you've been hanging with guys that devalue their relationships with women. Maybe you'd just been stuck for a while in a mode that isn't really you?
    There's no conflict between my mode of thinking and my values. As Meta said later above, he knows the details and it really isn't that bad.

    As I've also explained, I don't take advantage of people I care about. But if I'm able to manipulate a win-win situation, I do.

    This doesn't conflict with my values at all. Sorry if it does yours.

    The women that know me know that my opinions of ladies are the very highest. Many of them are on here and I'm sure would vouch for that.

    If you take an honest look at what you said about not wanting to influence others for harm and then the violation of your personal value in doing just that for everyone to see, you can see how others may mistrust your integrity.
    When did I influence others for harm? I believe I made it clear that I don't do that.

    We all make this mistake at times. Keep plugging away at making your behavior consistently match your values and it will happen less often. You strike me as someone who is in the process.

    And we are all in process of becoming our ultimate realization of self. Recognizing and owning, without excuse or explanation, when we make an error helps keep us on track.

    You may grow no further than a "tit for tat" mentality and that will probably still be sufficient for a satisfying life. My guess is that you would prefer to elevate yourself beyond that position.
    Look, I appreciate your post and your advice, even if it is incorrect.

  10. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    Wow, I feel like I have some great power of manipulation that I haven't been using.
    I think the "skilled" INFJs should start leaving tips for the rest of us.

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