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  1. #101
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    If you INFJs have been trying to manipulate people in this thread, you've been doing a shitty job!
    "When a resolute young fellow steps up the great bully, the world, and takes him boldly by the beard, he is often surprised to find that it comes off in his hand, and that it was only tied on to scare away the timid adventurers." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

  2. #102

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    I'm really hoping INFJs aren't as much of saints as the make out to be. Cos sometimes it can feel like eternity shackled to boredom. Maybe if some more evils got out then more character would be seen. For an ENFP just being nice and thoughtful rarely attracts me. It is great for society in a rigid, old fashioned, "lets do nothing wrong and make everyone else feel they have to toe the line also" way. But really come on and unleash. You are NFs!!! Bring on unplanned, wild entertainment. ENFJs have the evil in them, a bit of introversion can't change things that much.
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  3. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by LucrativeSid View Post
    If you INFJs have been trying to manipulate people in this thread, you've been doing a shitty job!
    They can be quite manipulative. They are just losing on purpose!!

    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  4. #104
    violaine
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    ....

    What is the nature of these 'pings'? What is the meaning you search for? How do you feel and what do you do if you send a 'ping' out and get a completely unexpected response?

    Anyway, thanks INFJs for your honesty!
    Well, it hadn't occurred to me to even explain it any further, lol. I forget that everyone doesn't do it. I was trying to describe the automatic process that I am sure all INFJ engage in when interacting with others, we are looking for clues. 'Searching' the other person. Trying to figure you out. People are puzzles. And it is not meant to be invasive, but is a way for us to 'see' you in order to relate, connect or analyze. I would feel lost without it. I don't use whatever I glean to manipulate, I just want to figure out how the other person works tbh. I very much enjoy when I get back something I wasn't expecting, though with a new person I rarely have predetermined ideas.

    (Oh and thanks for the encouragement!)

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I think INFJs have an awesome ability to not only care and empathize with people, but to take a detached perspective on things (unless it comes to themselves ) while balancing all of that on the quick-witted scale of experience. It makes for a very good manipulation set-up, though admittably I have never seen the INFJ I know to do anything even selfish in nature. If it benefits him, it does. If it does not though, he's still just as happy to be honest and open about what he evaluates. A pleasent surprise like a win-win isn't common, but when it occurs all the better is the attitude I've seen.
    This is very true, while we are analyzing we can become very detached. It's why INFJ can seem aloof even in the midst of discussing something that can be upsetting for the other person. I often have to remember to include something personal when I'm in that mode otherwise it can be weird, cos I can only feel the empathy for a person at the edges of what I'm concentrating on. (I am looking for a solution or resolution to a problem.) The full-force feeling of empathy will usually kick in later for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by noigmn View Post
    I'm really hoping INFJs aren't as much of saints as the make out to be. Cos sometimes it can feel like eternity shackled to boredom. Maybe if some more evils got out then more character would be seen. For an ENFP just being nice and thoughtful rarely attracts me. It is great for society in a rigid, old fashioned, "lets do nothing wrong and make everyone else feel they have to toe the line also" way. But really come on and unleash. You are NFs!!! Bring on unplanned, wild entertainment. ENFJs have the evil in them, a bit of introversion can't change things that much.
    Well some are and many aren't. (INFJ can hold themselves to very high standards.) But it will most likely never be known until you know one personally. INFJ and ENFJ can be sooo different, though obviously in the same 'family'. I often find much in common with INTJ because they are also Ni dominant.

  5. #105
    Temporal Mechanic. Lexicon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ByMySword View Post
    Yeah, but you can manipulate someone into doing something that they need to do if they're not able to figure it out for themselves. Thats what counselors are for. And thats how INFJs work. I'm not bragging about it, I never was, which is what I think you're getting from all this. I was just giving my thoughts on the matter.

    It isn't my fault I happen to appreciate the traits I have in this regard and consider them a strength.



    Thats the beauty of an INFJ. We can take a third party NT approach and advise them in the best course of action. Our NF allows us to put ourselves in their shoes and understand where they're coming from as well. Because of this, we're able to give sound advice in a caring manner. It makes us very comforting to talk to. And I won't apologize for that. I enjoy that strength, and I enjoy helping people I care about with it.

    And when you say that, you're basically saying all real therapists are scary and narcissistic, and thats fucking stupid. People come to me.

    The difference between them and me is that counseling people comes naturally for me, and since I never took a Hippocratic oath and I'm not gettiing paid, I technically don't have to help them. But I do anyway.

    Is it so wrong that sometimes, I can persuade them in a right course of action that will benefit myself as well?
    Well.

    I was going to respond to the initial question on this thread, as well as address the discrepancies regarding the generally perceived negative connotations associated with the word "manipulative."

    But you've pretty much summed it up for me.
    The only time I'm ever manipulative with others are the instances when distraught people approach me seeking advice on how to solve their problems. More often than not, as an objective observer, the most logical/effective/healthy solution is more apparent to me than it may be for the person directly involved. That said, sometimes it's difficult to simply present the solution in an upfront manner. I mean, you can flip to the back of your math book for the solution to an equation you're stuck on, but that's rarely enough to truly grasp the essential concepts and apply them again in the future... and then the solution doesn't even matter at that point; bears no significance or meaning, because you never actually made sense of the problem to begin with.

    So perhaps, in that respect, I define 'INFJ manipulation' as more of a form of teaching, albeit the student typically remains unaware that they've been seated at a desk, reading my scrawlings on the chalkboard at all.

    Only part I can't quite relate to is your final question. Not that I believe what you're doing is wrong (as it seems your primary motive in offering advice to these girls at all was to steer them from maladaptive directions in their personal lives, not get them to, well, bang you...), I'm just not sure that I've really ever consciously taken into consideration what in a situation [where I'm "counselling" someone] will benefit me as a result... aside from the general sense of satisfaction I derive from "guiding" people through obstacles, and watching them come to constructive solutions for their problems "on their own," and walk away not only with their answer but perhaps with a slightly elevated sense of self sufficiency as well... (yeah, all that makes me warm and fuzzy. And stuff.) When I'm in that 'repair humanity' mode, my awareness of my personal needs has a tendency to switch over to stand-by or shuts off completely.


    ...Then again, I've never had a guy I was attracted to come to me for advice about a bad relationship he was in...

    Hell. Simply enjoying the fringe benefits has precious little to do with deceit or exploitation.

  6. #106
    Arcesso pulli gingerios! Eldanen's Avatar
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    INFJs can be extremely good at inciting flames and emotional drama with their Fe. ENTPs are generally more innocent and can't hide their true motivations as much. Although I hesitate to say anything absolutely.

  7. #107
    Senior Member Kestrel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noigmn View Post
    I'm really hoping INFJs aren't as much of saints as the make out to be. Cos sometimes it can feel like eternity shackled to boredom. Maybe if some more evils got out then more character would be seen. For an ENFP just being nice and thoughtful rarely attracts me. It is great for society in a rigid, old fashioned, "lets do nothing wrong and make everyone else feel they have to toe the line also" way. But really come on and unleash. You are NFs!!! Bring on unplanned, wild entertainment. ENFJs have the evil in them, a bit of introversion can't change things that much.
    Maybe some INFJ's are saintly, nice, and make sure everyone else toes the line. I tend to rock the boat and take conflict head on if I feel it needs to be addressed. I think Fe that only cares about the "appearance of harmony" in order to avoid conflict, is unhealthy Fe. Real Fe will get its hands dirty and take a few hits to achieve real harmony. I keep my 'inner demon' buried but I'm not afraid to unleash it in those rare moments that require a strong, aggressive, fiery presence. Being "nice and thoughtful" usually lacks impact.

    My character tends to reveal itself to people over time, but only to certain people. I'm perfectly fine having average people see me as boring, since it means I get less unsolicited attention. The people who I take interest in, rarely find me boring.
    I-44 N-88 F-62 J-67

    A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty. -Winston Churchill

  8. #108
    Senior Member Silent Stars's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I also like this part here, where you proceed to read that he strongly values poetic justice, and you start to criticize it anyways. Then you expect him not to take things personally, after a very personal and heated debate. Instead of apologizing for your mayhap cross words, you simply justify them by sayign he's being personal. Blaming someone's sensitivity isn't the right way to go about things.
    I see nothing wrong with anything I said; there's nothing to apologize for. If he doesn't want to be criticized ever, he shouldn't be posting on an internet forum. I had every right to comment on what he said. I was not attacking him, so there is no problem with the points I brought up. I tend to forget that not everyone is as objective as I am when things get heated, hence the misunderstanding on his part.

  9. #109
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanveane View Post
    I was trying to describe the automatic process that I am sure all INFJ engage in when interacting with others, we are looking for clues. 'Searching' the other person. Trying to figure you out. People are puzzles. And it is not meant to be invasive, but is a way for us to 'see' you in order to relate, connect or analyze. I would feel lost without it. I don't use whatever I glean to manipulate, I just want to figure out how the other person works tbh. I very much enjoy when I get back something I wasn't expecting, though with a new person I rarely have predetermined ideas.
    In my head I have a mental image of the INFJ picking up a person as if they are a new toy, and inspecting it from all different angles. The INFJ then presses various buttons, but does it oh-so-gently. They want to get enough response to gain viable information, but do not want to disturb the toy... or to be noticed. They then extrapolate this information (if I press here harder, the toy will probably do this) to learn how to probably play nicely with the toy, or make it do what they want it to do without breaking it.

    Any of that ring true?

    Well some are and many aren't [saints]. (INFJ can hold themselves to very high standards.)
    Oh yeah, I knew one that wasn't a saint; she was a nasty piece of work. An INFJ that loses their moral compass can be pretty frightening.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lexicon View Post
    So perhaps, in that respect, I define 'INFJ manipulation' as more of a form of teaching, albeit the student typically remains unaware that they've been seated at a desk, reading my scrawlings on the chalkboard at all.
    When I've noticed INFJ 'manipulation', it usually comes in this form. I'm being molded, or steered in a certain direction, but never against my will.

  10. #110
    Senior Member Kestrel's Avatar
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    I've never seen giving people guidance or steering them in a certain direction as manipulation. Because if I'm doing this, it's because someone came to me and asked for my input. I always think of manipulation as twisting someone to bend to your will, usually without them knowing it. I think INFJs mostly want people to find their own potential, and hopefully use that potential toward some kind of greater good. (Fruitless goal, I know).

    I think it's easy though for INFJ's to pick up people in bad relationships or on the rebound, simply because we're so supportive. But I don't recommend doing this because the relationship is not being built on a strong foundation.
    I-44 N-88 F-62 J-67

    A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty. -Winston Churchill

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