[MBTI General] who're more manipulative? entp or infj

[Billy]

INFJs are massively manipulative. I had to help mt friend remove one from his company, the INFj he hired was making drama between everyone and playing everyone against one and other. But he always ended up with more money or the better positions. I saw his game and proved it to my friend who is the boss and he canned his ass.

 

[Winds of Thor]

Okay, here we go...

No, I did not miss the part where he said he wouldn't hurt anyone intentionally. Nor did I miss the words "values" and "ethics" in his description.

However, I also seemed to catch the phrases "but she wants it, so it's cool", "I have the person in the palm of my hands", "I would never advise someone I cared about to do the wrong thing", "the advice I give is never harmful", etc., etc.

For one, by definition you cannot "manipulate" someone into doing something they want.

Secondly, am I the only one concerned with someone who thinks that they know what is right for another person and manipulates that person to carry out related decisions?! Even if he does have the incredible gift of knowing what's right for others (an admission that I find both scary and narcissistic), where are the ethics in that?

The ethics are: It was known by both parties. That is why it was written in a humorous context, which you took as evil. Also why BMS felt okay putting the after the sentence, and supported it with the fact that "she likes it, so it's cool."

If she likes it, then she obviously knows it, and if those ENTPs are anything like me, they would definitely know it. Probably would feel relieved somewhat that someone did part of the digging for them.

So no one's forcing their opinion on anyone behind anyone's back. Both knew.

Relax.

 

[Winds of Thor]

ok, I said you guys win. I drive people away. I get it. I just tried to be nice to you guys. Now who's gonna befriend me on this site. Nobody after hearing this... I never ever said anything bad about any of you. I drove your friendship away and you drove me off this site.

I just thought you were nicer than your post sounded.

At least you apologized and owned up to what you really said

I'll befriend you. I like to spar. You couldn't hurt my feelings if you tried. So let's go!

Plus who's gonna love you if no one else does?

 

[pubcrawl]

I cant find the original quote from Evan

Post #122.

 

[Winds of Thor]

Everyone has manipulated. I'd imagine all here do and might not even know it.

Do you own any household cleaning products? Like bathroom cleaner or WD-40 or Hairspray or Makeup?

Well, since you do, you paid the companies when you purchased your product, your makeup, your bathroom cleaner, whatever. The companies set aside a portion of the product price for Legal fees.

By purchasing your products, you have, paid teams of lawyers at those companies...To argue, to manipulate juries and others, against the effects these products have on the environment, or animals, or personal injuries stemming from use of your products.

So you are manipulating people in courtrooms, by proxy, but still, by your purchase of these products.

Didn't know you were so immoral did you?

Relax. The content in this site on context to be expected, is Typology. The ONLY context which is amicably expected in the general sense. Keep to that and people will be more willing and share. Then you can learn from others and grow. Happy.

 

[Cenomite]

I've never thought myself or other ENTPs to be manipulative. I don't consider myself particularly gifted at manipulating other people in personal situations.

I more consider myself a good deal maker, that can mess with what someone considers logically correct, rather than their emotions. I can really only do this well in a business/school/professional setting.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I've never thought myself or other ENTPs to be manipulative. I don't consider myself particularly gifted at manipulating other people in personal situations.

I more consider myself a good deal maker, that can mess with what someone considers logically correct, rather than their emotions. I can really only do this well in a business/school/professional setting.

True, that..........what other people call 'manipulative' behavior on the part of ENTP's really isn't. We just have the unique ability to see people's underlying motives, future outcomes, and maneuver accordingly.

In reality ENTP's are less the masters of manipulation than the masters of out maneuvering those who attempt to manipulate. We rarely engage in any form of 'manipulation' in a vacuum.

But if we sense others are engaged in political manipulation, we are very fast to rise to the occasion, and usually manage to stay two or three moves ahead of the other person.

A prime example of such is the ENTP ability to predict the actions of others we know are involved in trying to manipulate a situation........we can predict those actions before they take place, and set traps accordingly.

 

[nynesneg]

So I'm curius... ENFJs are supposedly one of the most capable types to manipulate people.

My point relating to this thread...
If I want something, I'm good at seeing multiple perspectives. I present the side to the other person which most benefits them to get them to do what I want. They think I'm helping them get the best for them, when really they were just doing something annoying and I convinced them to do it differently.

Is this considered manipulation? I don't consider it dishonest at all, it's just the means of least conflict to get what I need.

 

[Cenomite]

True, that..........what other people call 'manipulative' behavior on the part of ENTP's really isn't. We just have the unique ability to see people's underlying motives, future outcomes, and maneuver accordingly.

In reality ENTP's are less the masters of manipulation than the masters of out maneuvering those who attempt to manipulate. We rarely engage in any form of 'manipulation' in a vacuum.

But if we sense others are engaged in political manipulation, we are very fast to rise to the occasion, and usually manage to stay two or three moves ahead of the other person.

This is all true! Especially the first paragraph.

It's easy for me to see what causes someone to make a certain decision, or what drives them, but I'm not too great at using that to make them do what I want. Even if I was, I'd feel like an ass if I did.

I mostly just use that knowledge to help understand how I should talk to certain people; not necessarily to get what I want from them, but to have a better relationship in-general with them by avoiding annoying misunderstandings. In a work setting, I do admit that I use that info to make myself seem better, but I wouldn't really call that manipulation. I'll also use that info to my advantage if someone is trying to mess with me, obviously.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Manipulation is the tool of a coward who can't get what they want through honest means.

They have to resort to tricking those who are either more intellectually or emotionally immature.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

Wow, I feel like I have some great power of manipulation that I haven't been using.

Hey...I thought the same thing nearly a year later.

I just don't see the point in manipulation. I get what I want by my own honest work and sheer brute force, and I don't put myself in positions to need anything from someone else. Sometimes I will kid around with people, but that's just my own personality quirk and not something most or all INFJs will do. Evan's example of INFJ manipulation seems more or less like normal INFJ behavior, once you take out the strategic wording. It is genuine, not premeditated to bend you to their will. If honestly reacting to others' feelings, telling the truth, and caring about others is manipulation, then I guess I am master manipulator. But I think most INFJs aren't "plotting" on you with this behavior. As for the others: don't let a couple of bad eggs serve as examples of standard INFJ protocol.

 

[BlackCat]

Manipulation is the tool of a coward who can't get what they want through honest means.

They have to resort to tricking those who are either more intellectually or emotionally immature.

+Infinity

 

[Skyward]

+Infinity

Quoted to support post, or QTSTP

 

[Ginkgo]

I think that ENTPs are natural born manipulators, while INFJs are naturally able to see past manipulation.

ENTPs are more passive about it, along with all of the other NPs. They often don't want to be noticed, and thus they "manipulate" rather than force.

INJs aren't afraid to get their hands dirty. They just do whatever is necessary without always caring about being seen (as much). INJs don't usually feel the need to subtly manipulate.

Sure, ENTPs are extroverts. This means that they can often be outspoken. However, their choices of words are more indirect and informative.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[cascadeco]

Eh...to the thread title, neither are 'more', neither are 'less'. Everyone has the potential to manipulate if they choose.

Others have already said it, but ANY and ALL types can be manipulative. Just different manners of manipulating, that's all. Some types are much more subtle, some more passive-aggressive, some types are more overt, some types are more cunning, etc.

Plus you have the fact that a person might interpret the behavior of another person as being manipulating in nature, when in fact it is not and the intent/motivation behind the behavior is not manipulative in the slightest. In that case the perceiver/interpreter of the behavior is most likely projecting his own insecurities or the fact that if he did the behavior, he would be in fact manipulating the other.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

Plus you have the fact that a person might interpret the behavior of another person as being manipulating in nature, when in fact it is not and the intent/motivation behind the behavior is not manipulative in the slightest. In that case the perceiver/interpreter of the behavior is most likely projecting his own insecurities or the fact that if he did the behavior, he would be in fact manipulating the other.

Indeed. I didn't want to use the hackneyed expression of "projecting," but I think it applies very much here.

 

[sgtmac_46]

This is all true! Especially the first paragraph.

It's easy for me to see what causes someone to make a certain decision, or what drives them, but I'm not too great at using that to make them do what I want. Even if I was, I'd feel like an ass if I did.

I mostly just use that knowledge to help understand how I should talk to certain people; not necessarily to get what I want from them, but to have a better relationship in-general with them by avoiding annoying misunderstandings. In a work setting, I do admit that I use that info to make myself seem better, but I wouldn't really call that manipulation. I'll also use that info to my advantage if someone is trying to mess with me, obviously.

It's the fact that we use that knowledge to navigate the political waters of given institutions that make it seem like 'manipulation'.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Manipulation is the tool of a coward who can't get what they want through honest means.

They have to resort to tricking those who are either more intellectually or emotionally immature.

As opposed to flat out good old fashioned honest strong arm coercion and force (says the ENTJ)!

Coercion and force have their place.......I prefer subtlety as a rule.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

As opposed to flat out good old fashioned honest strong arm coercion and force (says the ENTJ)!

Yup. ENTJs rock.

 

[simulatedworld]

INJs aren't afraid to get their hands dirty. They just do whatever is necessary without always caring about being seen (as much). INJs don't usually feel the need to subtly manipulate.

Yes, I get the irony of an INFJ pretending to be INFP for the purposes of manipulation/experimentation on others and then saying that INJs don't manipulate. You cruel, cruel bastard.