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  1. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by maerzhase View Post
    Just in case this message is indirectly directed towards my statement. I have never ever said that Fi IS a selfish function.
    By the way I think it is . But having said that, every man is supposed to be selfish. We have to be selfish in order to survive. If you never think of your own needs you would be really stupid. If you ruin yourself, the people who rely on you will be just as bad off. And thinking of your own needs is exactly what Fi does. I think this is not necessarily a bad thing. The opposite holds true. How can you care for someone else if you do not know your own needs? This is what I have also said in a previous post.

    Fi is the basis for real empathy. You can only empathize if you know what someone else is going through by having been there yourself and know your own feelings about it (Fi). However seeing that suffering in somebody else means, you are using Fe, because you apply your feelings outwardly.
    And just in case you do not understand the theory behind it: We all use our feeling in an introverted and an extroverted way. The wonderful thing about these functions is that we all have them and we all use them to a more or lesser extend. Do you think I am not using Fi just because you read somewhere it was my 6 th function? The moment I drink I cup of tea and I like it, that is when I am using my Fi.
    Thanks for the clarification. (It was directed at your statement)

    I'll try to clarify where I think you have gone wrong.

    First thing is, I think you have no idea what Fi is or awareness of it, because it is your 6th function. You may have a perception of it from life, you may have read up on it (but ignored 90% of the description and taken the part you liked), but I think in no way do you know much about it. Really how can you? You are essentially trying to tell a person of your Mirror Type what they are. As an exercise this is pointless.

    Mirror type relations between two intuitive idealist types ask for this sort of conflict. And this wouldn't be the first time some one here of either of our types has gone on such a crusade. The problem arises because each type knows how to change the world, or save it. Your Fe drives you as much as my Fi. They are not forgotten secondary functions. We are probably more altruistic than the Fx dominant types. You know that social structures and creating comfort is the way, we know personal development is the way. You create social structure and comfort, we help people develop and reach their potential. Both our types have a similar goal, just a different means of achieving it. We both want to improve the world for people. My neglect for your type's view is often as strong as your neglect for mine. Hence why you learn to dislike us. From my perspective your type's approach often traps people in places where they are limited and can not reach their potential. They want change, but you only accept the change you agree with. Much of the depression, social anxiety, etc. comes from the social novelties and structures that are in place. They promote conformity and make people less likely to deal with the deeper issues. People need dreams as well as comfort. They need a reason to live, as well as no reason to die. If Fi was just something that told me what I felt and gave me empathy as a result, I doubt I would put up with it this long. And I doubt I would do what I do as an ENFP, because it goes so far beyond empathising. It is subconscious, unplanned, but it drives every interaction.

    small quote from Einstein to remember too:
    "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not any simpler."

    We are talking about complex functions in the human brain. Just because they call it introverted feeling, doesn't mean it is just feeling directed inwards. If the brain was that simple I'd walk into hospital tomorrow and start working as a neurosurgeon.

    Also Princess Diana is a great example of an Fi dominant doing what Fi dominant types are driven to do.
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  2. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by noigmn View Post
    Thanks for the clarification. (It was directed at your statement)

    I'll try to clarify where I think you have gone wrong.

    First thing is, I think you have no idea what Fi is or awareness of it, because it is your 6th function. You may have a perception of it from life, you may have read up on it (but ignored 90% of the description and taken the part you liked), but I think in no way do you know much about it. Really how can you? You are essentially trying to tell a person of your Mirror Type what they are. As an exercise this is pointless.

    Mirror type relations between two intuitive idealist types ask for this sort of conflict. And this wouldn't be the first time some one here of either of our types has gone on such a crusade. The problem arises because each type knows how to change the world, or save it. Your Fe drives you as much as my Fi. They are not forgotten secondary functions. We are probably more altruistic than the Fx dominant types. You know that social structures and creating comfort is the way, we know personal development is the way. You create social structure and comfort, we help people develop and reach their potential. Both our types have a similar goal, just a different means of achieving it. We both want to improve the world for people. My neglect for your type's view is often as strong as your neglect for mine. Hence why you learn to dislike us. From my perspective your type's approach often traps people in places where they are limited and can not reach their potential. They want change, but you only accept the change you agree with. Much of the depression, social anxiety, etc. comes from the social novelties and structures that are in place. They promote conformity and make people less likely to deal with the deeper issues. People need dreams as well as comfort. They need a reason to live, as well as no reason to die. If Fi was just something that told me what I felt and gave me empathy as a result, I doubt I would put up with it this long. And I doubt I would do what I do as an ENFP, because it goes so far beyond empathising. It is subconscious, unplanned, but it drives every interaction.

    small quote from Einstein to remember too:
    "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not any simpler."

    We are talking about complex functions in the human brain. Just because they call it introverted feeling, doesn't mean it is just feeling directed inwards. If the brain was that simple I'd walk into hospital tomorrow and start working as a neurosurgeon.
    I dislike it if people assume things about me they just can't know. That is my little Fi.
    I dont have an intention to improve the world. Dont tell me it is a sign that I am not using Fe/Ni.

    My closest friends are all dominant introverted feelers. Just like my daughter and my sister. Watching and talking to them has given me a lot of first hand experience how Fi functions for them.

    You are generalizing when you say your type's approach often traps people in places where they are limited and can not reach their potential. This is in fact the very thing, you ask people who prefer Fe, to avoid. Trust me I am a strong believer in individual freedom. And I really hate people being boxed into 16 types and than be told how they are supposed to behave. I behave as I am pleased. I love to use Ni when I am on my own daydreaming, I send out my christmas cards like an Fe, I fix my bathroom like an Ti, I develop new ideas like an Ne and I f* like an Se because I cant do this intuitively. I am using all my functions when it is appropriate.There is no way I let people confine me to some tested boundaries. This is not what type is supposed to be. You use it as if it was the bible. I see it as a means to develop every aspect of your personality be it Fe, Fi, Ti, Se and alike.

    I know this sounds angry but belief me I am never angry about other peoples beliefs because I cant change them. So let's sheer up.
    Thoughts die the moment they are embodied by words. (Arthur Schopenhauer)

  3. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by maerzhase View Post
    I dislike it if people assume things about me they just can't know. That is my little Fi.
    I dont have an intention to improve the world. Dont tell me it is a sign that I am not using Fe/Ni.

    My closest friends are all dominant introverted feelers. Just like my daughter and my sister. Watching and talking to them has given me a lot of first hand experience how Fi functions for them.

    You are generalizing when you say your type's approach often traps people in places where they are limited and can not reach their potential. Belief me I am a strong believer in individual freedom. And I really hate people being boxed into 16 types and than be told how they are supposed to behave. I behave as I am pleased. I love to use Ni when I am on my own daydreaming, I send out my christmas cards like an Fe, I fix my bathroom like an Ti, I develop new ideas like an Ne and I f* like an Se because I cant do this intuitively. I am using all my functions when it is appropriate.There is no way I let people confine me to some tested boundaries. This is not what type is supposed to be. You use it as if it was the bible. I see it as a means to develop every aspect of your personality be it Fe, Fi, Ti, Se and alike.

    I know this sounds angry but belief me I am never angry about other peoples beliefs because I cant change them. So lets sheer up.
    Damn, that's a big turn around from Fi types are selfish.

    I don't really want to argue, but I think if your closest friends and your daughter and your sister are Fi dominant types it might be worth arguing.

    You think these people tend to be selfish why?

    And you don't wish to understand otherwise why?

    And do you tell them these things, or just suggest it about others like them on here?

    (sorry for pushing on this, but I don't really like the whole hit and run thing. If you are going to do a back flip on it at least take back a statement or apologise.)
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  4. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by noigmn View Post



    You think these people tend to be selfish why?
    Using Fi does not mean you are selfish. It means you know your needs. Because this is the very thing Fi does for you. Finally because of your well developed ability to understand your own needs you are better able to see the needs of other people (Fe).

    If you do not want to get my point, I will stop here. Other people are asking for my time (Fe).

    Enjoy your weekend. I hope there is less rain where you live.
    Thoughts die the moment they are embodied by words. (Arthur Schopenhauer)

  5. #75

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    Cool, sorry for the conflict. I get stirred up by some of this stuff. Though I think it is resolved, sort of. Agree to disagree.

    No rain where I live. Though would be nice soon. Lots of fires are still burning.
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  6. #76
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    Interesting debate. Yet, I think that's there is maybe too much judgement value on the function themselves. Also I think it's too simplistic to say "with Fe you see other's need, in Fi your own needs". In fact, I would indeed agree that Fi would be somewhat ineffective without a secondary function (Se/Ne), but I would say that Fe is also ineffective without Ni/Si. An individual using only Fe may percieve some "flow of emotion" in others, but remain unable to analyze it without datas collected by Ni/Si. In other words he will be unable to know when a person is sad/angry/joyful, because he will lack datas to interpret the "flow of emotion" in a meaningful way. He will also, of course, be unable to categorize his/her own emotions because he did not it for others.

    Same for Fi, he will be unable to categorize other's emotions because he did not it for himself.

    In all cases, the judgement function, whatever it is internal or external, needs a "data collecting" function to act efficiently. But when it had the "data collecting" function, well, the two are able to percieve other's emotions. Of course the way of expression and the path to interpret the emotions correctly greatly differs, but the result is the same.

    For example, imagine a Fe seeing someone having pain, I imagine that he would say to himself "I sense this external flow of emotions. Yet what data do I have collected internally when seeing this flow?" and then will act to alleviate this pain. An Fi in the same situation will say to himself "I see this external data. Yet what flow of emotion do I internally have associated with this data?" and then act in consequence.

    Of course this is my interpretation, but I prefer this approach.

  7. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ratus View Post
    Interesting debate. Yet, I think that's there is maybe too much judgement value on the function themselves. Also I think it's too simplistic to say "with Fe you see other's need, in Fi your own needs". In fact, I would indeed agree that Fi would be somewhat ineffective without a secondary function (Se/Ne), but I would say that Fe is also ineffective without Ni/Si. An individual using only Fe may percieve some "flow of emotion" in others, but remain unable to analyze it without datas collected by Ni/Si. In other words he will be unable to know when a person is sad/angry/joyful, because he will lack datas to interpret the "flow of emotion" in a meaningful way. He will also, of course, be unable to categorize his/her own emotions because he did not it for others.

    Same for Fi, he will be unable to categorize other's emotions because he did not it for himself.

    In all cases, the judgement function, whatever it is internal or external, needs a "data collecting" function to act efficiently. But when it had the "data collecting" function, well, the two are able to percieve other's emotions. Of course the way of expression and the path to interpret the emotions correctly greatly differs, but the result is the same.

    For example, imagine a Fe seeing someone having pain, I imagine that he would say to himself "I sense this external flow of emotions. Yet what data do I have collected internally when seeing this flow?" and then will act to alleviate this pain. An Fi in the same situation will say to himself "I see this external data. Yet what flow of emotion do I internally have associated with this data?" and then act in consequence.

    Of course this is my interpretation, but I prefer this approach.

    Hi Ratus, I agree with you.
    Fe and Fi need to be supplied with data. In case of Fi it is data that you take from your external world (extroverted perception) and then evaluate the data with feelings and reason (introverted judgment). The next time you encounter this situation you remember it (introverted perception) and apply the results thus your personally gained knowledge and feelings accordingly (extroverted judgment).
    This is how I see all eight functions working together.

    There is however one problem. Extroverted judgment as used by many people may not always be based on personal experience but seems to be based on some kind of group understanding. Group pressure may force you not to act according to the results of your introverted judgment. Instead of this you may choose to act in line with the group opinion. Let's say if every member of your group thinks black or whatever type of people are evil and should be avoided, you may follow them even so you have not had any bad experience (introverted judgment) yourself. I think this is the problem of extroverted judgment if it is not backed up by introverted judgment and probably what noigmn wanted to say with her generalized statement about the use of extroverted feeling by some types.
    Having said that applying group opinion and knowledge (extroverted judgment) does have its advantage. After all we cannot experience everything ourselves (introverted judgment). The problem only arises if we do not learn to question group judgment or deny our own experiences.
    Thoughts die the moment they are embodied by words. (Arthur Schopenhauer)

  8. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by maerzhase View Post
    I think this is the problem of extroverted judgment if it is not backed up by introverted judgment and probably what noigmn wanted to say with her generalized statement about the use of extroverted feeling by some types.
    Nah that was just some subtle mirroring, in hope you'd see what influence your statements of a similar type have on others, and also that you don't possess the "God" function.

    Quote Originally Posted by maerzhase View Post
    Fe is basically the function equal to what neuroscientist and psychologist call a theory of mind. If you don't have it you are unable to integrate into any group. Because if you are not able to read other people intentions and expectation you will be seen as an outsider by them. This function is impaired in autistic people. You could also say Fe is the glue that sticks us together as members of our society.
    Quote Originally Posted by maerzhase View Post
    I think there is far too much value judgment here. Fi is not good in itself. Fi only means you know your own feelings in any given situation. If not well-balanced Fi could well make you a very selfish person that will ignore other peoples feeling.

    What you are describing here is a person who has by own experience (Ne/Se) developed a good grasp of their own humanity by using their introverted feeling. You can now see another person suffering because you have been in this position yourself (Fi). If you are able to acknowledge the suffering of another person you are actually using your feeling in an extroverted way. Therefore if you have a very high-developed Fi you are able to better empathise with other people. This is how Fi and Fe connect.
    You're theory feels comfortable from your perspective, but it is egocentric, and assumes that we need in some way to aspire to be you to interact. My point was that we are just different, rather than Fe impaired. We have no intention of seeking it, and may have a completely different view of what it means to be a good person. If you find that uncomfortable, then find it uncomfortable, but acknowledge the point that we aren't lost, rather we disagree. And if you try to save us thinking we are lost, it just does damage to us. We don't need or want to be saved. Plus ENFPs are generally far better social networkers than INFJs, to the point that some use us to help them meet people, and move into new groups. This appears to exist from birth without learning to be Fe. And at 27, I'm still not Fe and doing quite okay.

    On the Fi part. We learn in the external world as much, if not more than the internal world Ne. That is where our input comes from. Introverted functions mean internal processing, Ni doesn't intuit about yourself all day, and Ti doesn't solve your own problems all day. So when we process with Fi, we learn it from external data, we learn empathy from seeing the consequences of things around us, and the interaction of things around us. Most of us suck at our own needs, but are adaptable enough to get around that.
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  9. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by noigmn View Post


    You're theory feels comfortable from your perspective, but it is egocentric, and assumes that we need in some way to aspire to be you to interact. My point was that we are just different, rather than Fe impaired. We have no intention of seeking it, and may have a completely different view of what it means to be a good person. If you find that uncomfortable, then find it uncomfortable, but acknowledge the point that we aren't lost, rather we disagree. And if you try to save us thinking we are lost, it just does damage to us. We don't need or want to be saved. Plus ENFPs are generally far better social networkers than INFJs, to the point that some use us to help them meet people, and move into new groups. This appears to exist from birth without learning to be Fe. And at 27, I'm still not Fe and doing quite okay.

    On the Fi part. We learn in the external world as much, if not more than the internal world Ne. That is where our input comes from. Introverted functions mean internal processing, Ni doesn't intuit about yourself all day, and Ti doesn't solve your own problems all day. So when we process with Fi, we learn it from external data, we learn empathy from seeing the consequences of things around us, and the interaction of things around us. Most of us suck at our own needs, but are adaptable enough to get around that.
    Dear Noigm,

    to be honest I just wonder why you are writing all this to be me. I have never put you down in my posts for prefering your type. It looks to me as if some one has made you angry in the past and you are not over it yet.

    I ll give it a new try. My whole argument is not about who is using the better function in the first place.

    I spell it out again. We use all eight functions. I use your functions just as you use my functions (to be honest referring to them as my functions sounds sort of ridiculous, because these functions are part of us learning about the world and making the right choices when asked for it. All these functions are present in you and me in our daily life. We use them to explore (extroverted perceiving and introverted judgment) and to apply these results (introverted perceiving and extroverted judgment). I hate to bore every body stiff. So I will only write about it when I am asked. Apart from this I can recommend the book Personality type - an owners manual by Lenore Thomson.

    If you tell me you are an ENFP and therefore only use Fi and Ne and that you can ignore all the other functions than all you tell me is that you have not understood the type theory in the first place. If you did not use all your eight functions you would be a completely dysfunctional individual. Type only means that you prefer one function out of eight in the process of making decisions and learning about your environment. That is the so called dominant function. Because you exercise it more often it will give your decisions a certain style. Type does not mean that you dont use all the other functions.

    Please read my post again if you feel less hurt and you will see that I have not put you down.

    maerzhase
    Thoughts die the moment they are embodied by words. (Arthur Schopenhauer)

  10. #80

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    ?? What?

    I know we use all 8 functions. I know some are stronger. I also know Fi is not as you described it. That is all I am saying. And to describe it that way has a negative influence on the types who use that function more strongly, by making people infer certain things.

    The argument doesn't really involve emotions or me. I was just stating it on principle. I didn't think your description of Fi was right or constructive.

    If you want to keep me happy, make it about that rather than feeling based things. I think I'm out though, I'm sort of bored of it.
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

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