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  1. #61
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Ah, sweet duality...

    Some things get to be so clear sometimes. See, I know an ENTJ woman, lived with her for a while, and I know how she's living now. And I also recently got to know an INFP. It's just so freaking obvious what those two could do for each other. I know how she lives and acts; and I saw what he does with his eyes. It'd be an instant thing. If she would get over choosing lovers for their upward-mobility and he would... dunno, don't know him well enough... maybe he just has to be on time.

    It's almost a pity they live in different cities.


    Actually, what I saw with the INFP wasn't just the eye thing. There's something rugged and fierce going on inside INFPs. Total match for the overwhelming force of an ENTJ. Something, and this is rare, something she'd be awed by if she saw it. Not cowed, but awed, and admiring and seeking.

    In that austere, fierce, would you believe "passionate", XNTJ way, it's beautiful.

  2. #62
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    I strongly disagree.

    the ENTJ INFP isnt duality... it ends up being a relation of supervision. Each person gets slightly irked when the other uses their weak conscious function so well.

    The INFP is constantly reminded about how much they suck with Te. The ENTJ is constantly reminded how they either a) cant feel or b) get way to melodramatic when they do feel.

    True duality, is when each person covers the others 8th and 7th functions. So NTJ and NFJ have some sort of duality because one provides Fe for the NTJ and the the other provides Te for the NFJ. This works better than the NFP/NTJ because neither person is upset about how good the other is with their gift. The ENTJ could give two shits about how the ENFJ is able to Fe her way around with his friends because the ENTJ never aspired to be that in the first place! It ends up being that each person covers the other 8th or 7th functions and makes a stronger team.



    I wonder if I'm a slightly more Fe aware ENTJ. Living with my ESFJ mom has made me learn how to walk on egg shells when necessary. For me:

    1. being with someone who understands Ni is a huge plus that can't be understated.
    2. being with another NTJ would be like dating yourself
    3. therefore NFJs are awesome as long as you have some tact and have skill at mediating/avoiding miscommunication.

    It might also be a maturity thing. When I was younger I never really had much thought about the NFJs. However, meeting an NFJ recently and never falling harder in my life? I've had to reconsider all the things I usually hate about Fe.

  3. #63
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Around an ENTJ who's going to get to use Te anyway? You guys got that covered so very completely it's a non-question.

    And since you do, you have little or no need for deception. You blurt out whtever's on your mind with nary a thought for how it sounds.

    And an INFP doesn't cope at all well with people who deceive or put on a false front. They need that blunt, relentless truth telling. Seems to me. They also need someone who acts immediately.

    Tell a story: an INFP and his gf, an INFJ, were playing pool in a bar. Up strolls some playa type who's slick and smooth and knows them both. He was an E of some kind anyway. By way of starting conversation, he reaches out and touches the INFJ's cheek. Watching from afar I saw the INFP see that. He was taking his shot at the time.

    INFJ keeps chatting with playa because she's smooth herself with people one on one--she thinks so anyway--, and she's in charge of parceling out part time work at her place and this guy was possibly coming to take a few hours she needed filled.

    INFP, meanwhile, was coping with that split second instinct he'd had, to swing his pool cue and take interloper down. Anyone looking at the scene from where I was couldn't have failed to see it. It was the damndest split second photo. INFP didn't swing, of course, and therefore he held onto all those feelings of jealousy and rage and failure for the rest of the evening.

    Now, my question: in that same situation, if his girlfriend were an ENTJ instead of this INFJ, what would INFP have seen when playa stepped up?

    Short answer is playa wouldn't have gotten within 10 feet of an ENTJ if he was trying smooth moves, she would be too ready to laugh at him, and if he did get close enough anyway, she would have immediately and in full view of everyone, acted to back him down and reassert her dominance of the room. Playa wouldn't get away with a stroke of her cheek. INFP would have seen an ENTJ gf aggressively, and with a competitive smile, back playa off and back him down. I think so anyway.

    So there's that.

    As for what the INFP does for the ENTJ... is there a person alive who can tell an ENTJ s/he's walking down a path that'll hurt the ENTJ if ENTJ's made up her mind about what actions she going to take? An INFJ would try. Lord, would an INFj try. She'd fail though, because she'd be relying on Fe to make the ENTJ believe. An INFP might well not say anything at all, but anyone with an ounce of Te would see that something was wrong with him, and if she cared, both for the INFP and her plan, she'd act to fix it. (And that's where INFPs being fierce and rugged inside comes into play, incidentally. Their insides will not be steamrolled by an ENTJ the way pretty much everything else will be, and that's the only part the INFP will care about.)

    Something like that. Seems to me anyway.

  4. #64
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    Stand back and watch the Mr. Smoothmove work? I'm sorry, I would have entered into the conversation. Never let a guy around your girl go with out interruption, never.
    Dreams are best served manifest and tangible.

    INFP, 6w7, IEI

    I accept no responsibility, what so ever, for the fact that I exist; I do, however, accept full responsibility for what I do while I exist.

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  5. #65
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by runvardh View Post
    Stand back and watch the Mr. Smoothmove work? I'm sorry, I would have entered into the conversation. Never let a guy around your girl go with out interruption, never.
    but what if it means you read into everything way too much and become a control freak who flips out with jealousy every time a guy talk to ur girl? ....

  6. #66
    Senior Member Desperado44's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by runvardh View Post
    Stand back and watch the Mr. Smoothmove work? I'm sorry, I would have entered into the conversation. Never let a guy around your girl go with out interruption, never.
    Agree.

    Interrupt. You can do it without looking insecure.

    The guys is pulling the 'alpha male' routine on you....he is try to mark his territory....and you need to stop him. Trust me, she is watching to see what you do too.....
    I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel. --- Maya Angelou

  7. #67
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    but what if it means you read into everything way too much and become a control freak who flips out with jealousy every time a guy talk to ur girl? ....
    Hehehehehe, it's called interrupting with out freaking out. You do it calmly and in control of yourself. It's about making sure there's nothing going on with out punishing the other two parties. If something happens that offends me with out being detrimental in actuality, I will discuss it afterward with her. Finally, if it's obvious he's getting obnoxious, I have to do something, period. I otherwise just let my undertones do the talking.

    Edit: Oh yeah, and it kind of helps to be fun with your girlfriend too. Balance it right and she won't need that kind of attention from other guys.
    Dreams are best served manifest and tangible.

    INFP, 6w7, IEI

    I accept no responsibility, what so ever, for the fact that I exist; I do, however, accept full responsibility for what I do while I exist.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  8. #68
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    The difficulty for this particular INFP was his gf was INFJ. He hadn't been on any kind of steady ground with her since they started dating some months before. (Nor she with him, either.) By this particular evening they were already well into an almost daily cycle of break ups and puzzled, tacit reconciliations. So he didn't really have the option of making alpha moves. He couldn't be at all sure she would have cooperated. She probably would even have criticised him for being too sensitive since in her eyes she would have been doing nothing more than setting up some work.

    I like the guy. He's probably too intense for my I to handle, but in small doses the robust, earthy, fierce stuff that comes out of him is liberating. She's great too. Just as robust and fierce, though that Fe makes a hammer of her output sometimes.

    They're still together.

  9. #69
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    I generally agree with the first part of your post Kalach. However I have some points to contend for the second part:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    As for what the INFP does for the ENTJ... is there a person alive who can tell an ENTJ s/he's walking down a path that'll hurt the ENTJ if ENTJ's made up her mind about what actions she going to take? An INFJ would try. Lord, would an INFj try. She'd fail though, because she'd be relying on Fe to make the ENTJ believe. An INFP might well not say anything at all, but anyone with an ounce of Te would see that something was wrong with him, and if she cared, both for the INFP and her plan, she'd act to fix it. (And that's where INFPs being fierce and rugged inside comes into play, incidentally. Their insides will not be steamrolled by an ENTJ the way pretty much everything else will be, and that's the only part the INFP will care about.)

    Something like that. Seems to me anyway.
    So in effect you think the ENTJ is going to employ psudo Fe and detect that something is bothering the INFP and then start to examine themselves?

    I think its far more likely that the INFJ would succeed via REAL Fe, at accessing the inner sentimental side of the ENTJ.

    You have to remember that this isn't standard ESFJ Fe, this is Ni directed Fe! Secondly, I dont think Fe is nearly as shallow of a function we have all painted it to be. It isnt about following social mores and manners. Fe is about picking up the feelings/vibes of others. SFJs are big on social norms because not following those norms, often makes others in the room feel less comfortable...the Fe then picks up on all of that. So now imagine a Ni directed Fe. Ni/Fe is a very powerful tool at prying out the inner feelings of others.

  10. #70
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    I generally agree with the first part of your post Kalach. However I have some points to contend for the second part:



    So in effect you think the ENTJ is going to employ psudo Fe and detect that something is bothering the INFP and then start to examine themselves?
    Honestly, I dunno how it works. INFPs maybe can chime in. What I noticed myself dealing with an INFP is he would say stuff that NiTe could pick up, process and respond to. Not vibes or feelings, but sharp questions about the meaning of projects and actions.

    That story in particular at the pool table, I doubt I was using any kind of F to pick up his mood. I think I picked up action cues. It just looked like one of those photos you see, or a scene in a movie--he was, for a split second, poised.


    I think its far more likely that the INFJ would succeed via REAL Fe, at accessing the inner sentimental side of the ENTJ.
    Could be. Might well be. It'd be a dangerous undertaking, though, wouldn't it? Aren't 4th functions fairly unconscious, or at least not very much under conscious control? And they're usually darker, more reactive than active? What would an ENTJ do if he realised someone was doing something to him and he didn't know what it was but it was making him very nervous?

    Besides, if someone's accessing 4th functions or even 3rd functions, they'd really better not be hitting them directly. Dominant function's gonna want to know what's up first, and might fight, especially if 4th function is sending up frightened signals from the basement.

    INFJ would talk her Fe too, probably (if that makes any sense), rather than manufacture consent through the time consuming and energy sapping rigamarole an ENFJ would lap up for desert. INFJ'd bang up against Te, wouldn't she? (Unless, like it sounds in your case, the ENTJ is actively paying attention and looking for answers he can use.)

    I think whatever's going on, it's likely just to be that much more comfortable and meaningful for the ENTJ (and INTJ, too) if feeling is engaged as something like an expression of satisfaction in the kind of action an E/INTJ would normally take anyway.


    Gah! You know what, how treading on dangerous ground am I not, right now? This is theory, and it speaks to real life, but real life comes first. In real life people sometimes do better than theory.

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