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  1. #51
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Lucky you. (Sorta.)

    My ENFJ makes offers and provokes arrangements and actually winds up in bed, sometimes with her clothes off.

    And by that time with me looming over her all she's aware of is despair.


    And I'm not willing to blame ME for that. It seems to me it's just another, though particularly telling, example of how this particular ENFJ and this particular INTJ always and every time take each other's plans and turn them into something else, something more suitable for themselves, which the other never accepts and starts working against, and on and on until the day is over and nothing has been accomplished.

    The only way I can understand it is: for the INTJ (or me, anyway) feelings need permission, so substantive, successful action is a precondition to feeling's arrival and growth; and for the ENFJ (or her, anyway) permission needs feeling, so substantive action needs the right feeling before it can be undertaken with vigour and meaning.

    I find it a lethal dynamic. And the more the two of us try it, and try it again, and then try it again, the more it comes to feel anti-life. Keeping up this kind of behaviour is like offering an insult to the universe in general.

    I actually said that one time, us both laying there in bed angry and upset: "What we do," said I, "is like spitting in the face of God."
    You know that's really twisted. But I completely understand what you mean. That's the way it is sometimes between an INTJ friend of mine. We both used to like each other, never admitted to it, the time has passed, but there are residual feelings left that get expressed in other ways. Sometimes we do what you describe to each other, but since it still has a playful edge to it I think it's fun. I understand how it's not so fun too.

    Why are you still with this person? Do you like this?
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  2. #52
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    You know that's really twisted. But I completely understand what you mean. That's the way it is sometimes between an INTJ friend of mine. We both used to like each other, never admitted to it, the time has passed, but there are residual feelings left that get expressed in other ways. Sometimes we do what you describe to each other, but since it still has a playful edge to it I think it's fun. I understand how it's not so fun too.

    Why are you still with this person? Do you like this?
    To a degree, yes. When we've both been away from each other for a while and rested, it's like sparring. Gearing up for a demonstration of strength and meaning. (And if we're not in the same room, just chasing each other around the city by cell phone, then it can take all day to decay into true anger and frustration.) It manifests in different, exciting, these days increasingly dark ways: randomly once I came up with the idea of tying her arms, and the practice genuinely excited her; we fought in the street one night, for I refused to have her come to my house and found myself blindly dragging her away from the gate of my house; oral sex works, on her, not on me; anger, deep, passionate, righteous anger that disappears as soon as she leaves... The raw power of experiences like these and the fact that they're uncommon to me is... was...attractive.

    These days... (and with a more roseate filter on my presentation...)

    Two people, future-oriented, positive, inclined to planning and given very much to offering other people direction... being able to call "fail" on this thing asks of me a mature strength I am unaccustomed to exercising. Whatever strengths I have, mature or otherwise, I want to say of anything I invest in, "succeed."

    And she's always there, always back again, always spinning positive. It's easy to be weak and get lost again, me trying or just wanting somehow to express something life-affirming, and she always seeming to be offering that chance.

    These days I don't think of myself as "with" her. I never really did think of myself that way, in fact. There was so little to hang that tag on. And I can't imagine letting her into my house ever again. But there's still that spark, that little fire that comes from the sheer volume of human learning I do because of her.

    If it helps any in understanding, prior to this girl, the most significant woman in my life had been an ENTJ. We were together for three years. And looking back, the first girl I ever had sex with was E*FJ. It seems to me I learned somewhere along the way that human relationships really are meant to be inadequate. They are, it has often seemed to me, meant to engage drives and not satisfy them.

    My ideas are changing. I'm aware now of two ENFPs in my life. One's a flaky buddy who lives in another city. He's currently seeking, of all people, my advice, because he knows I'm INTJ and he's found this girl who's INTJ too. That aside, he currently likes knowing he's ENFP and wants to explore what it means. In true ENFP fashion he's combined the MBTI with horoscopes and believes he can do facial recognition tests on people to work out their type, but whatever. The other ENFP is a young woman, early twenties, who I like and who likes me. I like that she's my friend.

  3. #53
    Senior Member Harlow_Jem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Lucky you. (Sorta.)

    My ENFJ makes offers and provokes arrangements and actually winds up in bed, sometimes with her clothes off.

    And by that time with me looming over her all she's aware of is despair.


    And I'm not willing to blame ME for that. It seems to me it's just another, though particularly telling, example of how this particular ENFJ and this particular INTJ always and every time take each other's plans and turn them into something else, something more suitable for themselves, which the other never accepts and starts working against, and on and on until the day is over and nothing has been accomplished.

    The only way I can understand it is: for the INTJ (or me, anyway) feelings need permission, so substantive, successful action is a precondition to feeling's arrival and growth; and for the ENFJ (or her, anyway) permission needs feeling, so substantive action needs the right feeling before it can be undertaken with vigour and meaning.

    I find it a lethal dynamic. And the more the two of us try it, and try it again, and then try it again, the more it comes to feel anti-life. Keeping up this kind of behaviour is like offering an insult to the universe in general.

    I actually said that one time, us both laying there in bed angry and upset: "What we do," said I, "is like spitting in the face of God."
    I know exactly what you mean. When you both keep playing your own games with one another, it can get realllll ugly... it's happened to me and my ENFJ too. What needs to happen is one of you (most likely you because Feeler's will never really be able to speak Thinker language but I think it's much easier for Thinkers to learn Feeler language) has to just realize that you have to soften up and start mirroring the way she approaches and deals with you instead of just approaching and dealing with her the way you are naturally inclined to do.

    I know. It sounds horrible because when an INTJ/ENTJ realizes that they have to "soften up" we want to flee as fast as possible since we see "softening up" as weakening ourselves and putting down our armor and going against our rigid morals of being completely stubborn to changing ourselves. But if you really care about her then you'll realize that softening up and learning how to play her "game" is in the end still a selfish motive while being a non-selfish one because you're learning how to do something for both of you since in a way, you want to do whatever you can to possess/keep her. Or at least that's how I justify it to myself. But I only decided that my ENFJ would be the only one I'd soften myself up for because with him, I feel like he is worth all that and more; that I can see myself with him forever...something that has never happened to me before.

    "I have no need for good souls; an accomplice is what I want"--Sartre


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  4. #54
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harlow_Jem View Post
    I know. It sounds horrible because when an INTJ/ENTJ realizes that they have to "soften up" we want to flee as fast as possible since we see "softening up" as weakening ourselves and putting down our armor and going against our rigid morals of being completely stubborn to changing ourselves. But if you really care about her then you'll realize that softening up and learning how to play her "game" is in the end still a selfish motive while being a non-selfish one because you're learning how to do something for both of you since in a way, you want to do whatever you can to possess/keep her. Or at least that's how I justify it to myself. But I only decided that my ENFJ would be the only one I'd soften myself up for because with him, I feel like he is worth all that and more; that I can see myself with him forever...something that has never happened to me before.
    Okay, that's a really tough one, the question of softening up.

    It's my best function, being ruthlessly real. Being rooted in reality but seeing it as a tool of expression. I can't say clearly why it is, but that's exactly what I want to offer to someone I love. I want to know so clearly what is true that anything she does is made real too.

    Obviously I'm making an extreme statement here, and it will be entirely bizarre and mostly useless to anyone other than an ENFP.

    But there's a reason for being ruthless about it. Reality is a slippery sucker and her secrets are deep. Sitting around by myself, softness is emptiness; there's no surety of conclusion.

    Anyhoo, I guess if what reality has thrown up for you is this ENFJ, and everything's come together to say that he is the one... then you have a foundation for softening up. A reason and a truth to your softening.

    Mind if I bring out a sharp question? You sure you're not ENTJ and being melodramatic?

    I'm not making light of that. I've seen an ENTJ when she lost control of the everything she wanted to control. But, y'know, you really don't want to find a gentler tool than an ENFJ? A nice INFP maybe--someone as sure (in his own unsure way) of "feeling truth" as your ENFJ but who can't make a plan for shit and doesn't have the energy or the will to control anyone?

    Sorry if I sound too flip. I see a lot of valuable discussion going on here and I don't want to derail it by being too insensitive. I am wondering--actually genuinely wondering--which of us sees the question of softening in the right way.

  5. #55
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    You know what, I think you're right about the softening idea.

    I think probably it happens by nature with the right person, someone who'd let me keep my ruthless focus but who'd welcome a modification of its expression.

    Something like that.

    I suppose it could happen by choice too.

  6. #56
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harlow_Jem View Post
    On a cosmic level, it seems as though he and I are not meant to touch on any sphere but I would fight the forces of the universe to the death for him. Either that, or I never want to see him ever again.
    This explains your behavior on the forums, but do you have any idea where (or if) you draw the line and decide to walk away?

    To answer the post, I think conflict is par for the course between the ENFJ/ENTJ, not only surface level conflict but subtle, underlying conflict. The two types just have too many tricks in their bags to manipulate situations and people, some being subconscious. Mind games are almost inevitable.

    Remember that Fe is often focused on the emotions of others. I only have a vague understanding of it beyond that, but I've seen examples of Fe and Ni gone awry. Personally, I think that it's VERY realistic that you hurt him to his core, he hasn't forgiven you, and he doesn't feel you deserve to be let off the hook yet. He wants you to feel the way you are feeling right now.

    The only solution I can see is to start disarming him (slowly) and easing his pain, and he will likely start wanting to help you ease yours.

  7. #57
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    My had an ENTJ and close friend for over about a year. I can say she told me I took everything personally and this was true. I had to let that go a lot. But she came across as harsh and easily critical with no remorse. I loved the lady and we spent lots of time together and went out socially and she gave me great advice and I deferred to her a LOT on career advice and objective advice.

    She deals with things when they happen and quickly. This made me wanna run! Anger and the "way you say it" means 10 times more than any word you say. I cannot hear her when she was angry because she gets it out and gets over things like a storm and does not see that I need to think about it first and discuss it after thought in a calm way. Also I I see is anger and I cannot even remember the words and formulate a thought.

    When I walked away and avoided the argument she got furious and held that against me for a long time. She brought up the time i avoided her later on and I realized that it was a difference that bothered her but I was not willing to speak in anger or be spoken to in anger. In the end we had to kill the firendship over this issue (which she had an easier time doing by far). Our last communication was a conflict situation when she heated up and wanted to solve it right then and I just belw up and said I couldn't handle that style of conflict resolution anymore and walked out for good.

    She never called me (and gossipped horribly about how much I cried to my astonishment) and I called and apologized on her voicemail because I felt HORRIBLY guilty for displaying open anger with no reasons and logic to show why. I can now easily move on but I did take the blame on myself for a few months until some friends who were there told me that it was 50/50 and I was being depressed about it and not myself in thinking about it all the time and trying to figure it out.

    Also I like to talk and take breaks and she would focus for long periods of time.

    The matching J part was good and we could ride together and be ontime and prepared for things and the extroversion. Socially it was great and she matched me there which is HARD to find. Also she was willing to try new and exciting things and be up for the challenge in life. That is an exhillirating attitude for me and she always kept inviting me to do new things with her and go out. Even though when out she was more task focused and I was people focused. News to you ENTJ's who are harsh to us ENFJ's: You will get your view of me from the back as I hang out with your friends since I have taken the time to get to know them and they will like me and you won't get enjoy that! Hahah that was nice for me in this whole situation and a general benefit of being a feeler and loving people. I pick up the friends of people and they generally keep me and like me and will invite me to things without the estranged person much to their chagrin and my enjoyment!

    She did say that in her marriage she becamse just like me an ENFJ and her husband hated it since he loved the T side of her and she became all Suzy home-maker and the relationship focused person all the sudden.

    I cried a lot in the conflicts and she focused even harder. She could handle conflict and be tough and I always felt wrong for being thin-skinned around her. Like she saw it as a bad thing to be overcome.

    Sorry people! I have to conclude that in the end I would never be close with an ENTJ. It was a horrible end and not worth it to me although she taught me so much and was giving in her thinking and knowledge to me sometimes greatly so. I think it was not so much an equal friendship because she always looked-down upon my "feeling" side and thought it should be outgrown or changed. And the criticalness and lack of verbal affection really made me feel starved even before our final conflict. She didn't know that when I told her and thought she was making an effort verbally. It wasn't enough by even 30% in my opinion when she was making a noticeable effort.

    Her manner of giving was her knowledge, time, and service. They were greatly appreciated but not a way I receive love best.
    Sweet words and peaceful conflict and understanding me for who I am and my strengths are what I need. The material take away point for you T people: Don't ever tell an NFJ that they shouldn't be so emotional. That will only piss us off and show us we may not be appreciated by you. That statement pretty much will begin our evaluation of whether you are able to be a good friend and are trustworthy.

  8. #58
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    I enjoy the company of NTJs, but would never date one. There's way too much power being thrown around. I like to feel natural deference to the one I love, not a "you must rise/lower" to the occasion. I couldn't personally see myself dating a J. I have an INTJ friend who's dating another NTJ and to my eye it looks like a constant power struggle. Great wingman though. We handle ourselves well in crowds.

    My ENTJ bff and I would be the best Viking raiding party on earth, (and I've gotten along smashingly with the ENTJs interested in my ENFP sister) but as to the ENFJ/NTJs being "together" in a romantic orientation? No. At least not for me. I'd feel like I was dictating to him, or that he was having to alter himself.
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  9. #59
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heather View Post
    The material take away point for you T people: Don't ever tell an NFJ that they shouldn't be so emotional. That will only piss us off and show us we may not be appreciated by you. That statement pretty much will begin our evaluation of whether you are able to be a good friend and are trustworthy.
    It works the other way too. How many times have I heard an ENFJ tell me I think too much? You might as well tell an NTJ he could do without his penis. (That includes the women.)

    Like Pink says, way too much power gets thrown around.


    All the rest of it... yeah, you're both right.


    Oh, btw, that thing about how anger is dealt with... glad you said something about that. It never was something I could intuit the meaning of. It seems so obvious to me that if you think it or feel it, you say it right then and there. Shutting it down, going silent--I'd only do that if I'd made a decision to turn a corner and maybe not come back.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    It works the other way too. How many times have I heard an ENFJ tell me I think too much? You might as well tell an NTJ he could do without his penis. (That includes the women.)

    Like Pink says, way too much power gets thrown around.


    All the rest of it... yeah, you're both right.


    Oh, btw, that thing about how anger is dealt with... glad you said something about that. It never was something I could intuit the meaning of. It seems so obvious to me that if you think it or feel it, you say it right then and there. Shutting it down, going silent--I'd only do that if I'd made a decision to turn a corner and maybe not come back.
    Tried the whole feeling thing a couple of times. Not my cup of tea. It did show me though how people, society, whatever could get caught up in such pointless bullshit and witnessesd many lose control of their lives. Feeling in small doses though i.e. sex, one intimate partner, your family, goes along way towards balancing an individual like myself.

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