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  1. #41
    Guerilla Urbanist Brendan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harlow_Jem View Post
    Believe me, I try. Whenever I try to talk to him about these things he just gets pissed and replies with either one word answers and doesn't seem to want to confront any conflicts. I think that whenever I try to bring these things up with him, he immediately gets defensive about everything because he can't get past the resentment and anger underneath it all (but I don't think he realizes this, which is a big problem because if I point it out, he'll most likely just get enraged).
    Push him! You're an NTJ damn it, now push!
    There is no such thing as separation from God.

  2. #42
    Senior Member Harlow_Jem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
    Push him! You're an NTJ damn it, now push!
    I've pushed it hard before and learned a lesson when all that resulted from my pushing were nasty screaming matches and rage.

    We just had a little talk about it and I basically told him that I feel something like a nagging despair about it and when I asked him what he felt about everything, he said, "I think things are going fine." He's at work though so we agreed to have a talk about everything later.

    Am I insane? How can two people in the same relationship feel almost completely opposite about the situation? I think he has a problem with denial and I don't think he's aware of when his anger is bubbling under the surface because he probably subconsciously represses it, which is why it erupts volcanically. I also think he's still punishing me for the past and is still afraid to let his guard down again.

    I can't believe I've turned this forum into my relationship therapist. Hahaha

    "I have no need for good souls; an accomplice is what I want"--Sartre


    psychic changes are born in your heart, entertain.

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  3. #43
    Senior Member The Third Rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harlow_Jem View Post
    I've pushed it hard before and learned a lesson when all that resulted from my pushing were nasty screaming matches and rage.

    We just had a little talk about it and I basically told him that I feel something like a nagging despair about it and when I asked him what he felt about everything, he said, "I think things are going fine." He's at work though so we agreed to have a talk about everything later.

    Am I insane? How can two people in the same relationship feel almost completely opposite about the situation? I think he has a problem with denial and I don't think he's aware of when his anger is bubbling under the surface because he probably subconsciously represses it, which is why it erupts volcanically. I also think he's still punishing me for the past and is still afraid to let his guard down again.

    I can't believe I've turned this forum into my relationship therapist. Hahaha
    It makes the day go by faster at the job.
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    If you read this I am sorry to say that you just lost 5 seconds of your life that you wont be getting back.*

    *Actual time may vary.

  4. #44
    Member Sunshine8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Littlelostnf View Post
    Very good advice Sunshine...From one ENFJ to another..."Well done!"

    Thanks!
    Sunshine8

    'A diplomat... is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that you actually look forward to the trip.'
    - Caskie Stinnett

  5. #45
    Member Sunshine8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harlow_Jem View Post
    I've pushed it hard before and learned a lesson when all that resulted from my pushing were nasty screaming matches and rage.

    We just had a little talk about it and I basically told him that I feel something like a nagging despair about it and when I asked him what he felt about everything, he said, "I think things are going fine." He's at work though so we agreed to have a talk about everything later.

    Am I insane? How can two people in the same relationship feel almost completely opposite about the situation? I think he has a problem with denial and I don't think he's aware of when his anger is bubbling under the surface because he probably subconsciously represses it, which is why it erupts volcanically. I also think he's still punishing me for the past and is still afraid to let his guard down again.

    I can't believe I've turned this forum into my relationship therapist. Hahaha

    Ah - that's a shame (punishing for past). My only recommendation is to confirm with him whether this particular issue is causing him to feel negatively about your relationship and if so, whether there is anything you can change in your present behaviour to alleviate it.

    For instance - say you had been unfaithful (which is actually quite common so not trying to have a dig here!) - perhaps the short-term solution is to be cautious about your interactions around other men, not because you think something will happen, but because it ignites the fear/jealousy trigger. He might like you to be more affectionate in public with him so that you seem more 'established' as a couple - hard to tell though without asking.

    There is alway counselling, which as an ENFJ I find is a very 'safe' forum for discussion of conflicts. The therapist is asking what I want for me, rather than me having to push for what I want and then worry about seeming selfish. It somehow feels fairer. In an ideal world I would be able to clearly state what I need but that is a bit of a journey for me.......

    Best of luck - I had better get back to work!
    Sunshine8

    'A diplomat... is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that you actually look forward to the trip.'
    - Caskie Stinnett

  6. #46
    Senior Member Maabus1999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harlow_Jem View Post
    Where can I sign up for FSL (Feelings as a Second Language)??
    Surround yourself with NF friends. It is the best way to learn (and if you are an INTJ, you will learn though it will never be natural).

  7. #47
    Senior Member Harlow_Jem's Avatar
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    Ok final answer. I've finally figured it out!

    The ENTJ's primary way of looking at things is to proceed forth with a clear conclusion in mind and to plow through something as if it's a battle that needs to be won. Feelings are irrelevant until a conclusion is reached. After the conclusion (whether the ENTJ and the ENFJ is in a definite, pronounced relationship) is reached, then feelings are inserted. The ENTJ does not see the point of/is extremely uncomfortable with unleashing feelings unless their feelings have a clear mission of where they're going. To an ENTJ, there's no such thing as aimless wandering.

    The ENFJ, on the other hand, appreciates the aimless wandering and does not find it aimless, but considers it a journey that needs no definite destination. The ENFJ walks the gray roads of life while the gray roads of life are invisible to the ENTJ; as the ENTJ is colorblind and can only see the black and white roads of life. The ENFJ's feelings are most comfortable when allowed to explore and sight-see without the pressure of having to reach a conclusion as soon as possible. Thus the ENFJ, in this way, works fundamentally opposite to the ENTJ; the more a conclusion is demanded from the feelings of the respective types, the more the ENFJ's feelings recoil while the ENTJ's feelings breathe a sigh of relief as they can spring free.

    "I have no need for good souls; an accomplice is what I want"--Sartre


    psychic changes are born in your heart, entertain.

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  8. #48
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Doesn't sound like any ENFJ I know.

    Where ENTJs manage practical problems, ENFJs manage people problems. I assume--it looks like, anyway--that there's a very similar dynamic: both cannot help implementing a solution when they identify problems. The big difference seems to be ENTJs are really, really visible when they set to work; ENFJs really don't want to be visible when they're doing what they do.

    People problems? The measure of the person problem is the ENFJ him/herself. ENFJs make the world harmonise and they themselves are the tuning fork. They use cheerful propaganda. Constantly. There isn't another way of speaking.

    ENFJs are driven to manage the people around them. They have to. Otherwise, being Fe Dom, their feelings are just hanging out there with no protection whatsoever.

    Anyway... this is great for a lot of nearby people, often it produces awesome, productive environments. Often too, for nearby INTJs, it's awful.

    And sad, really. Both ENFJs and INTJs really just want someone to join in with them and appreciate what they do. But neither the ENFJ nor the INTJ is capable of it for the other. When the ENFJ is pumping out strong feeling, the INTJ, rather than be wowed and appreciative, instead starts pumping out words and plans and instructions. The ENFJ doesn't need any of this. S/he already knows what s/he's about and what s/he wants to say and do. And the same thing, vice versa.

    So why do they keep on at each other? In my own experience it's because they can talk Ni at each other until the cows come home. They just can't do anything about it. And being J, they never accept that. So on it goes...

    What I found is the relationship, when it's halfway workable, when the two aren't so close to tearing each other some new one, then it produces a lot of insight. And leaves you still lonely anyway.

    The two types really and truly just don't know how to do it for each other. Even though that kind of interaction ends up producing some really clear insights into what would do it for each other. Or at least what would do it for yourself. That's usually what the two end up talking about.

    Again and again and again and again and...

    And the sex is crap.

  9. #49
    Senior Member Harlow_Jem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Doesn't sound like any ENFJ I know.
    Maybe he doesn't sound like a typical ENFJ because I suspect he's very depressed right now.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    And sad, really. Both ENFJs and INTJs really just want someone to join in with them and appreciate what they do. But neither the ENFJ nor the INTJ is capable of it for the other. When the ENFJ is pumping out strong feeling, the INTJ, rather than be wowed and appreciative, instead starts pumping out words and plans and instructions. The ENFJ doesn't need any of this. S/he already knows what s/he's about and what s/he wants to say and do. And the same thing, vice versa.

    So why do they keep on at each other? In my own experience it's because they can talk Ni at each other until the cows come home. They just can't do anything about it. And being J, they never accept that. So on it goes...

    What I found is the relationship, when it's halfway workable, when the two aren't so close to tearing each other some new one, then it produces a lot of insight. And leaves you still lonely anyway.

    The two types really and truly just don't know how to do it for each other. Even though that kind of interaction ends up producing some really clear insights into what would do it for each other. Or at least what would do it for yourself. That's usually what the two end up talking about.
    So true. We both feel like we "click" in some weird, unexplainable way...which is our Ni feeling a connection and we understand one another perfectly when we speak in Ni language (metaphorically wrapped up versions of what we literally mean) but otherwise, things get misunderstood/misinterpreted.

    It does produce a lot of insight and definitely in some strange way leaves us both still lonely anyway (at least it does for me and I sense it does for him too as it's clear to both of us that we want each other but there's always an invisible wall separating us).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    And the sex is crap.
    I don't know if I quite agree with this one though...

    Sex is the one language where you can express everything you can't exactly say and if two people have an intense longing for one another but can't quite communicate, the things "said" during sex can be amazing.

    "I have no need for good souls; an accomplice is what I want"--Sartre


    psychic changes are born in your heart, entertain.

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  10. #50
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harlow_Jem View Post
    I don't know if I quite agree with [that the sex is crap]...

    Sex is the one language where you can express everything you can't exactly say and if two people have an intense longing for one another but can't quite communicate, the things "said" during sex can be amazing.
    Lucky you. (Sorta.)

    My ENFJ makes offers and provokes arrangements and actually winds up in bed, sometimes with her clothes off.

    And by that time with me looming over her all she's aware of is despair.


    And I'm not willing to blame ME for that. It seems to me it's just another, though particularly telling, example of how this particular ENFJ and this particular INTJ always and every time take each other's plans and turn them into something else, something more suitable for themselves, which the other never accepts and starts working against, and on and on until the day is over and nothing has been accomplished.

    The only way I can understand it is: for the INTJ (or me, anyway) feelings need permission, so substantive, successful action is a precondition to feeling's arrival and growth; and for the ENFJ (or her, anyway) permission needs feeling, so substantive action needs the right feeling before it can be undertaken with vigour and meaning.

    I find it a lethal dynamic. And the more the two of us try it, and try it again, and then try it again, the more it comes to feel anti-life. Keeping up this kind of behaviour is like offering an insult to the universe in general.

    I actually said that one time, us both laying there in bed angry and upset: "What we do," said I, "is like spitting in the face of God."

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