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  1. #1
    Senior Member mwv6r's Avatar
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    Default INFJ female seeks help understanding ESTJ female and former friend

    Hello,

    So I'm an INFJ female who loves personality type, and I'm always trying to use MBTI to help me understand any conflicts I encounter with other types. So, at the risk of sounding like an overly sensitive, self-confessing NF, here's my situation that I would love help sorting out.

    I'm engaged to a really awesome guy who's an ESTP (my opposite). About a year and a half ago (before getting engaged) we had some problems because we started hanging out with a new coworker of his, an ESTJ female. His workplace is very social and we get to know a lot of our good friends, male and female, through the mixers and things that his company holds. She was fairly new to our social circle, and honestly she kind of made me anxious because I sometimes felt she was hitting on my boyfriend. But whenever it got bad enough that I thought about putting my foot down and cutting ties with her, she would be extremely nice to me and then I would say to myself, "Well maybe she's just really outgoing. I shouldn't jump to conclusions." So for a few months it went on like this, with me vaguely suspicious of her, but not enough to break ties, and we'd all hang out at bars and such with groups of other people. I never talked to my boyfriend about my anxieties over her because I didn't want to seem insecure or overbearing, and in retrospect I see that I should have just been upfront with him the whole time.

    So a couple months after we start hanging out with her, my boyfriend got a big promotion at work... to be her boss. Suddenly what had been only an irritating suspicion for so long became very obvious -- she was suddenly all over him, constant non-work-related texts and phone calls, constantly talking to him about her prospects for moving up at work, hanging all over him and making me feel like a third wheel whenever she was at the same social event as us, etc. I was furious, and I kicked myself for not acting on my spidey sensors earlier. (As an introverted intuitive and NF, now I'm learning to trust my intuitions and insights about people more.) I finally told my boyfriend what I was observing and that I was angry at her but also very angry at him for even letting it go on, especially since in retrospect I was now quite sure that the flirting had been going on for quite a while, though less explicitly before she was his subordinate. He quickly cut non-professional ties with her and seemed genuinely remorseful. In the end I think this was good for our relationship because as an outgoing, life-of-the-party ESTP he had seemed to think that flirtations were okay as long as he did not initiate them and did not act on them, but now he understands that I take those behaviors very personally, and since then we only hang out with coworkers who are respectful of our relationship. Things have been great between us since then.

    Here's the thing though, I still feel very angry whenever I see her at company social events. Luckily that is not very often, but it's often enough to get under my skin. She heard through the grapevine (we have some mutual friends) that I didn't like her and didn't want anything to do with her (I never went bashing her to any of those mutual friends, but if I was out with them and they suggested giving her a call to come out, I would ask them not to). Nonetheless, for a long time she would still come up to me at those mixers acting all friendly and complimentary towards me. I would literally pretend not to see her and walk away, because I got the feeling she was looking for a way back into our social circle and thought that kissing my ass would get her there. Finally she stopped, but now I hear that she is telling people she has no idea why I'm being so mean.

    Here's where I would like some help. Is it really, really possible that she doesn't know why I don't like her? I have a lot of trouble imagining someone that emotionally dense, but maybe that is a trait of certain poorly-developed ESTJs? What do you guys think? Any advice on how to deal with her or with people like her in the future? What especially bothers me is that she seemed to think I was a doormat who could be manipulated with compliments.

    One more question about ESTJ females, and lest you think I'm hating on that type, I assure you there are many ESTJ females who I know and love, including my fiance's sister and one of my favorite aunts. But I have noticed a pattern in a few of the ESTJ females at my fiance's job. Just like this girl who pissed me off, they seem willing to use sex appeal to try to advance in the company. Not all of the ESTJ women at his job are like this, of course, many are respectful and perfectly nice. But the ones who are seem to have no qualms about throwing themselves at a male superior, even if both parties are married, and I've heard about instances of adultery with two of them. All three who I've seen doing this are quite attractive, very outgoing, and demand a lot of attention. Has anyone else noticed a tendency in attractive ESTJ females to act in this manner at work? It surprises me because what I've read about ESTJs is that they are devoted to family and so it seems strange that these women would sacrifice their marriages in this way... Again, no disrespect to ESTJs, the majority of whom I've found to be very admirable people.

    Also, any suggestions on how I can let go of my anger toward this girl, because I hate feeling like steam is coming out of my ears when I have to encounter her on occasion.

    Thanks for your help! Sorry this is so long :o)

  2. #2
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    My older sister is an ESTJ, and hmm, your story here, is very interesting indeed.

    First off...

    My sister works in production, and she happens to be in a niche in the field where her higher-ups tend to be female.

    She is, however, very work-conscious, and she would and does do things that some of us, (myself included), would find phony and generally inappropriate to get "in" with her superiors.

    My sister is not flirtatious, by nature, however, though I have seen her be "nice" to males who were in some kind of position to potentially give her something that she wants.

    My sister is very popular, probably due to her physical attractiveness, and her unquestionable confidence. Despite this however, (my IsFP sister and I talk about this all the time), she is honestly the most socially retarded popular person we have ever met, meaning she generally fails in picking up social cues, and can rarely tell how people feel, whether it be positive or negative unless this is explicitly expressed/overt.

    When my sister is *genuinely* attracted to a male, she will have no problems pursuing him, even if she happens to be in a relationship, but from what I have gathered thus far, she views married men as categorically off-limits.

    Perhaps this girl simply wants to gain your hubby's favor so as to climb the corporate ladder, and as I have alluded in my post, this is something an ESTJ female would very likely do.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

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  3. #3
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    Its possible that she doesn't know why you dislike her so much, sort of a repeated situation between your fiance and you, in that she sees nothing wrong with being "overlyfriendly" with him. Honestly, I don't think I can help you that much, but my advice would to be upfront with her the next time you two meet. If she truly doesn't know why you never liked her, then I doubt she'll pick up on your cues to stop, and will continue pursuing either you or your fiance until she feels she is back in your social group. I definitely see this tension between you two lasting for a LONG time, so, again I'd suggest you nip it in the bud right now.

    On another note, I'm think you're giving her the opportunity to completely play the victim, what with your passive-aggressive approach to the situation.

  4. #4
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neo Genesis View Post
    Its possible that she doesn't know why you dislike her so much, sort of a repeated situation between your fiance and you, in that she sees nothing wrong with being "overlyfriendly" with him. Honestly, I don't think I can help you that much, but my advice would to be upfront with her the next time you two meet. If she truly doesn't know why you never liked her, then I doubt she'll pick up on your cues to stop, and will continue pursuing either you or your fiance until she feels she is back in your social group. I definitely see this tension between you two lasting for a LONG time, so, again I'd suggest you nip it in the bud right now.

    On another note, I'm think you're giving her the opportunity to completely play the victim, what with your passive-aggressive approach to the situation.
    Oooo, Neo brings up a valid point.

    Passive-aggressiveness is not a language my sister speaks.

    Aggressiveness/blunt-forwardness is.

    And believe it or not, my sister, as formidably aggressive as she might be, actually responds well to people who stick up to her and she'll instantly gain respect for them.

    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

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  5. #5
    wholly charmed Spartacuss's Avatar
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    I wouldn't give her too much of a pass, if I were to go by experience with an ESTJ guy friend. He was very friendly to then bf - probably had the best rapport with him of all my friends. Let's just say he went out of his way to make it clear to him he liked him.
    This is the same friend that would try to insinuate himself into my good graces and give praise bundled with subtle snide comments about the relationship as if to suggest he'd be a better fit. Normally, he'd be subtle about it so as not to be obvious that it was a dig at the guy, since that would obviously get him booted from hanging out with us. Nobody could accuse him directly of plotting anything, but his comments or the way he acted made you wonder, yet remain silent because you're not sure where he's coming from.
    Shortly after the BF became an EX, guess who became more blatant about his intentions? The same one who would kiss his ass. It was all about biding his time but insinuating himself until he felt the timing was on his side. I don't mean to alarm you, but I think your spidey senses may have been correct and that she has a very good idea what she was doing.
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  6. #6
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    I have a hard time believing she has NO idea; from my own life experience S does NOT mean stupid. See two options, she knows and is trying to make you out to be the mean quiet bitch; or she doesn't know and is hoping her plays are still underground.
    Dreams are best served manifest and tangible.

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  7. #7
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by runvardh View Post
    I have a hard time believing she has NO idea; from my own life experience S does NOT mean stupid. See two options, she knows and is trying to make you out to be the mean quiet bitch; or she doesn't know and is hoping her plays are still underground.
    Female Ts, and female STs, in particular, can be quite clueless when it comes to what most of us would consider obvious social cues.

    I cannot speak for all ESTJs or Ts in general, but my ESTJ sister and my InTP best friend are both quite oblivious when it comes to reading people, they also both, my ESTJ sister even more so, have relatively low EQs.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by runvardh View Post
    I have a hard time believing she has NO idea; from my own life experience S does NOT mean stupid. See two options, she knows and is trying to make you out to be the mean quiet bitch; or she doesn't know and is hoping her plays are still underground.
    If I had to guess, I'd say its the former, but my imagination does run rampant sometimes.

  9. #9
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Who the heck are you kidding. I think she completely knows, and she sounds like a total bitch. :steam: (Speaking from personal experience and bitterness )

    Anyways, don't let her get under your skin!!!

  10. #10
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    Ok, it is possible most of my family is SF, though there is my uncle and aunt... Eh, it's likely possible their normal social attempts just creep me out.
    Dreams are best served manifest and tangible.

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    I accept no responsibility, what so ever, for the fact that I exist; I do, however, accept full responsibility for what I do while I exist.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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