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  1. #21
    Senior Member Darjur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    I admit that what you've said is true. However having an exceptionally good voice is not a requirement to becoming a pop star. My working criteria was being "good enough" to succeed not being the best. Talent certainly is needed if you want to be top dog.
    If you have talent, to be just "good enough", hard work isn't required.

  2. #22
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Talent without hard work is a set up for failure.

    Hard work without talent, also a set up for failure (and frankly, a little sad to watch).

    You make your own luck.

  3. #23
    Senior Member placebo's Avatar
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    I think everyone is given a fair distribution of some kind of talent and some kind of luck. Hardwork takes you that much further. Hardwork develops your talent and creates your 'luck'. You can have a lot of talent and a good amount of luck, but unless you're REALLY lucky, which is unlikely, you'll still amount to the average person if you're damn lazy or just don't try. Being hardworking and disciplined can get you as far as you try and at the very least you can feel good about knowing you tried your hardest to get where you are. A hardworking person probably has the integrity not to care about society's preconceived notions of success, or as in your example that some Britney Spears was more popular than them even though they had tried harder. A hardworking person will likely be happy with whatever success they have achieved and it would mean more to them than any kind of 'lucky' success other people have.

  4. #24
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    I've noticed several J's say they don't believe in luck. I suppose that makes sense since P's are more likely to take advantage of unexpected opportunities. J's might view anything outside the plan as a temporary setback, while P's might actually see it as a stroke of good luck.
    My wife and I made a game to teach kids about nutrition. Please try our game and vote for us to win. (Voting period: July 14 - August 14)
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  5. #25
    Senior Member Darjur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    I've noticed several J's say they don't believe in luck. I suppose that makes sense since P's are more likely to take advantage of unexpected opportunities. J's might view anything outside the plan as a temporary setback, while P's might actually see it as a stroke of good luck.
    I'd say it's more an issue of definition of luck.

  6. #26
    Senior Member niki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by placebo View Post
    I think everyone is given a fair distribution of some kind of talent and some kind of luck. Hardwork takes you that much further. Hardwork develops your talent and creates your 'luck'. You can have a lot of talent and a good amount of luck, but unless you're REALLY lucky, which is unlikely, you'll still amount to the average person if you're damn lazy or just don't try. Being hardworking and disciplined can get you as far as you try and at the very least you can feel good about knowing you tried your hardest to get where you are. A hardworking person probably has the integrity not to care about society's preconceived notions of success, or as in your example that some Britney Spears was more popular than them even though they had tried harder. A hardworking person will likely be happy with whatever success they have achieved and it would mean more to them than any kind of 'lucky' success other people have.
    i find this to be a very good and inspiring post to me.
    thank you

  7. #27
    Senior Member ed111's Avatar
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    Samuel Goldwyn : "The harder I work, the luckier I get."

    I find that for 99% of jobs talent is of little use.

  8. #28
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    I'd like to add a fourth item: who you know. fostering your social network is extremely important... if people in your social network know you are either talented or are a hard worker then that's an important gateway to opportunities.

  9. #29
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Does Britney Spears have talent? Surely not! But she succeeded... why? Hardwork... not exactly on her part, but on the part of her manager and her advertising group.

    I'm curious about Britney being used as an example in these contexts.

    First, I would consider her talented, notably so in the big picture. She might not be top 1%, but she is more than average.

    Second, she does work hard - and has since she was a child.

    Third, she wasn't lucky. She was doing competitions and recordings since she was 8. It's not like she woke up and got discovered.

    Her extreme success managed to come from market penetration, which you could say is luck, perhaps, but...

    I believe "intuitive regression" would show that it goes in order: Hard work, Talent, Luck. Better put, I would say "time and effort", "initial conditions", "external factors".

  10. #30
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darjur View Post
    If you have talent, to be just "good enough", hard work isn't required.
    Not quite true. Effort doesn't just apply to practicing. There's also a huge component in promoting yourself. You can be a genius at something, but if nobody has ever heard of you, you haven't succeed. I guess in this case I'm defining success as social recognition... money and fame. Thought I should point that out.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I'm curious about Britney being used as an example in these contexts.

    First, I would consider her talented, notably so in the big picture. She might not be top 1%, but she is more than average.

    Second, she does work hard - and has since she was a child.

    Third, she wasn't lucky. She was doing competitions and recordings since she was 8. It's not like she woke up and got discovered.

    Her extreme success managed to come from market penetration, which you could say is luck, perhaps, but...

    I believe "intuitive regression" would show that it goes in order: Hard work, Talent, Luck. Better put, I would say "time and effort", "initial conditions", "external factors".
    It was brought up previously in the discussion. Her and Christina Aguillerra. Who has a better voice talent? That was what I was referring to. Clearly Christina, yet they're equally famous... in fact the younger generation might say Britney is more famous.

    Britney wasn't famous because of luck, but because of her mother endless drive. I don't believe in luck.

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