[MBTI General] This ENFP guy is driving me crazy!

[Jack Flak]

There is a part of the ENFP which is attracted to the ISTJ beyond initial interest. It's based on the ENFPs natural desire for harmony and the ISTJs drive to efficiently maintain society. The ISTJ is seen as doing good for the world.

Or that's how I see it.

 

[Wild horses]

I agree.. We sense something stabilizing in the ISTJ and we may even mistake it for harmony. They present attributes that we somehow lack and so they seem like the answer to all our logistical prayers LOL

 

[Jack Flak]

I agree.. We sense something stabilizing in the ISTJ and we may even mistake it for harmony. They present attributes that we somehow lack and so they seem like the answer to all our logistical prayers LOL

Well they may well answer your logistical prayers. But I think the ENFP "requires" someone who understands them on a different level than the ISTJ usually will, hence I don't recommend the match for the long term.

But that's just my cold, rational analysis.

 

[Lady_X]

seems like...but yeah...NO!!!

 

[The Chase]

Well of course it's only half true when you ignore the exception granting statement "More oft than not." Oh, you ENFPs, and your fractions.

That had me rolling. I'll admit that technically, you are correct in your assessment. Arguing with an INTP over syntax when the issue is nuance... it's just a bad idea. So let me preface this all by saying that you are right.

But...

I used the half true statement because while your statement was accurate, it was incomplete. It's not as simple as courting a person that is interesting, learning about them, and then leaving them in pursuit of something new.

For me, a former lover isn't just someone I was fascinated by... until I got to know them over time and I eventually found something else more interesting... they are a part of the rich tapestry that is my life. They helped shape my view of the world and given meaning to it. And I know that my life wouldn't be the same without having shared that experience with them.
And while I may be off learning or exploring or whatever... I am normally still available for them should the ever need it. There is a sense of awe and indebtedness.

The focus might not be what it was. But the warmth of my caring and compassion remains long after everything has passed.

Unless they are still needy years later... then I maintain my warmth and compassion at a distance.

 

[Wild horses]

Yea I know what you guys mean.. really I do.. I have felt dissatisfaction before however, there is always one ISTJ exception to the rule.. but I must agree whilst me and my ISTJ friend hear the words that are left unspoken me and my INTJ friend understand and suaully share the words/ feelings/ something I can't quite describe, left unspoken... Umm why is that?

 

[Jack Flak]

Yea I know what you guys mean.. really I do.. I have felt dissatisfaction before however, there is always one ISTJ exception to the rule.. but I must agree whilst me and my ISTJ friend hear the words that are left unspoken me and my INTJ friend understand and suaully share the words/ feelings/ something I can't quite describe, left unspoken... Umm why is that?

When one of you lives in a world of nuance and possibility, and the other a world of observable reality and well-established fact, you'll never be communicating on the same level.

Even when educating each other of your respective perspectives, skepticism remains. You may each think, in other words "You only think that's important because you don't see it the way I do."

 

[Cimarron]

Wait a minute. The original poster was an INFJ.

 

[Jack Flak]

Wait a minute. The original poster was an INFJ.

Yes, but this thread is being dominated by those keen on nuance and possibility, Sir.

 

[Cimarron]

Well, hopefully. I mean there's plenty that could be gleaned from this, but only if you're willing to put in effort. Never mind...

 

[Wild horses]

yea I know what you're saying really I do... And I have been guilty of more than once falling ino the awful trap of trying to 'open the others mind' to be honest in any connection (be it friendship, relationship,) the biggest problem for me is when the other Regardless of their types as I have had the problem with fellow ENFPs) denies the spirit.. I can only give half of myself from there on in...

 

[The Chase]

Well they may well answer your logistical prayers. But I think the ENFP "requires" someone who understands them on a different level than the ISTJ usually will, hence I don't recommend the match for the long term.

But that's just my cold, rational analysis.

Yeah, but that all boils down to maturity. The ENFP that still need someone to "understand" them on a different level is an ENFP that actually needs to grow and learn to understand themselves. They are just trying to use their natural skills in order to use the other person as a mirror.

It's a phase most of us grow out of. That's also usually the point where we stop apologizing for everything.

 

[Jack Flak]

Yeah, but that all boils down to maturity. The ENFP that still need someone to "understand" them on a different level is an ENFP that actually needs to grow and learn to understand themselves. They are just trying to use their natural skills in order to use the other person as a mirror.

Maturity, you say? I know not this word.

But really. You would be hard-pressed to convince me it's not rational to desire to be rather well understood by one's most intimate companions. To require it may not be essential for satisfaction in life, as there are other sources of such, but it does have merit.

 

[The Chase]

Maturity, you say? I know not this word.

But really. You would be hard-pressed to convince me it's not rational to desire to be rather well understood by one's most intimate companions. To require it may not be essential for satisfaction in life, as there are other sources of such, but it does have merit.

I agree with you that it's completely rational to desire to be rather well understood by one's most intimate companions, which I believe is something that ISTJ's can do. But I've seen ENFP's make the mistake of needing to be COMPLETELY understood by their mates, which is something the ISTJ cannot do. If an ENFP want to be completely understood, they should date a fellow ENFP. I've done that. Twice. They did not end well. But I sure learned a lot. For instance, I learned that I don't ever want to be that well understood again. Give me a little mystery please.

 

[Jack Flak]

I agree with you that it's completely rational to desire to be rather well understood by one's most intimate companions, which I believe is something that ISTJ's can do. But I've seen ENFP's make the mistake of needing to be COMPLETELY understood by their mates, which is something the ISTJ cannot do. If an ENFP want to be completely understood, they should date a fellow ENFP. I've done that. Twice. They did not end well. But I sure learned a lot.

NTs are capable of understanding ENFPs. Take me, for example. By understanding, I don't mean behaving similarly or agreeing on everything.

 

[The Chase]

Well, hopefully. I mean there's plenty that could be gleaned from this, but only if you're willing to put in effort. Never mind...

The original poster was an INFJ. She'll get plenty from this. If she was an ESFP, she'd be screwed.

Then again, I highly doubt and ESFP would have posted that question here in the first place.

 

[The Chase]

NTs are capable of understanding ENFPs. Take me, for example. By understanding, I don't mean behaving similarly or agreeing on everything.

ISTJ's can also understand ENFP's. The difference is really communication styles. The NT and the NF can spend hours talking about all of the nuance and theory of it... (usually over a couple rounds of beer because beer makes N's brain's work better). They'll pour over every detail, point out flaws, get quite drunk... and then start it all over again the next time they met up.

To have the same conversation with an NF, alcohol would still be involved though we would spend hours talking about how it applies to our lives, to society, to our friends, spiritually, emotionally, and psychologically, get quite drunk... and then start it all over again the next time they met up.

If I wanted to have the same conversation with an SJ, it would probably be while doing something previously scheduled, often including a chore (shopping, cleaning, etc.) and would be over in about 30 minutes once we have decided what it means to our society and/or family. Everyone would be sober, things would have gotten accomplished, and somehow we feel we bonded.

For sobriety's sake, I recommend the ENFP have an SJ spouse... but then maintain a good stock of NT and NF friends for the long winded communication needs.

 

[Jack Flak]

ISTJ's can also understand ENFP's. The difference is really communication styles....

I hate to get Technical, but it seems like what you're actually describing is hanging out together, not understanding how someone functions, mentally.

In that regard, I haven't met an ISTJ who demonstrated a personal grasp on the subject of psychological differences in the way many NTs have. They can read the books, and get the point, but they couldn't have written the books, going on their personal observations and studies.

 

[The Chase]

I hate to get Technical, but it seems like what you're actually describing is hanging out together, not understanding how someone functions, mentally.

In that regard, I haven't met an ISTJ who demonstrated a personal grasp on the subject of psychological differences in the way many NTs have. They can read the books, and get the point, but they couldn't have written the books, going on their personal observations and studies.

Of course I'm describing how we hang out, I'm an ENFP. As an NF, I'm focused on the relationship aspect of it. But how we hang out is driven by how we communicate which is driven by how we function mentally.

Could the ISTJ have written the book? Absolutely. The big question is *if* they would have written the book. And the answer is probably not unless they saw that the resources that would need to be invested in it were worth it.

ISTJ's are completely capable of grasping psychological differences and will utilize it if they decide it is a helpful tool. They just don't obsess about it the same way that NT's (in their pursuit of understanding the system) and NF's (in their pursuit of understanding humanity) do.

 

[Jack Flak]

Could the ISTJ have written the book? Absolutely.

Herein may lie our fundamental disagreement. To clarify though, what I said was that they couldn't write the book based on their own observations. ISTJs excel at condensing and relaying studies which are already out there, however. We have an ISTJ MBTI author on our very forum, after all.