[MBTI General] estj/infj relationships

[fleurdujour]

You make valid points but, once again, fail to understand my stance on any of this.

First off, taking the test once and biasing it as you said, is not going to give you your type...obviously. You are once again making assumptions. If I had said, "Take the test once and whatever you get is what you are" then your anger(?) would be justified because that is a ridiculous platform... I am almost angry that you are taking this out of proportion because nothing I have said was even directed at you fleurdujour, I am more than willing to stand my ground however.

If anything, the people who are trying to translate between the two theories are the ones who are being black and white about this. (INFJ in MBTI is NiFe and INFP is NiFe so the two must be interchangeable) Everything I said was directed at this. If you test as an MBTI INFJ and you test as an INFJ in Socionics and they both sound right to you then there is obviously no reason to dispute this.

I highly, -highly- suggest you learn to ask questions before you try to combat a person on their stance on something. That doesn't just apply to you fleur. If you are going to say "you were saying, 'bottom line, whatever your test says is what you are'" then you better be a freaking psychic as far as I am concerned.

Wow, okay. You said you are "almost angry" because "nothing you ever said was directed at [me]," but it was in the sense that you originally commented about a discussion I was part of and commented on things that I had said. How would translating between the two theories be black and white? That would be considered shades of gray because they are not commonly viewed as related and we are exploring connections between the two. And no, I'm not psychic, but was clarifying what I was pretty sure your point was because you were saying we all misunderstood it. Don't tell me to learn to ask questions. You should learn to clarify before jumping all over people for "assuming" what you mean.

 

[Chris_in_Orbit]

Who said anything about taking a test only once? I'm not seeing it...

Also, you didn't specify that you were only referring to professional ones, so what do you expect?

Maybe you could make yourself more clear, rather than saying "You're not getting what I'm talking about." and then not explaining what you meant while getting upset about it.

I'm not upset in the least.

And I don't pretend to have been clear in what I said, but you defend yourself as if it is only natural and right to take an unclear statement and make an assumption.

 

[redacted]

If anything, the people who are trying to translate between the two theories are the ones who are being black and white about this. (INFJ in MBTI is NiFe and INFP is NiFe so the two must be interchangeable) Everything I said was directed at this. If you test as an MBTI INFJ and you test as an INFJ in Socionics and they both sound right to you then there is obviously no reason to dispute this.

This was sort of why I brought up the subject. I was asking whether the functions were defined differently in the two different systems, and if so, how are they different? Because I always define MBTI type by function distribution (not vice versa) and it looks like Socionics does it the same way.

If the functions are defined the same way, INFJ in MBTI should be equivilant to INFp in Socionics, period. But that seems not to be the case, leading me to believe that either the functions are defined differently OR people are mistyping (maybe due to poorly written profiles or poorly explained function definitions). The third option is that people aren't typing in MBTI in the same way I am, they're just looking at the four dichotomies, in which case, I'd probably just look at their socionics type anyway. I guess there's a fourth option, too, which is me missing some key variable that would make this all make sense...

Somehow this turned into an emotionally charged argument; not at all what I'm interested in here.

 

[Chris_in_Orbit]

Wow, okay. You said you are "almost angry" because "nothing you ever said was directed at [me]," but it was in the sense that you originally commented about a discussion I was part of and commented on things that I had said. How would translating between the two theories be black and white? That would be considered shades of gray because they are not commonly viewed as related and we are exploring connections between the two. And no, I'm not psychic, but was clarifying what I was pretty sure your point was because you were saying we all misunderstood it. Don't tell me to learn to ask questions. You should learn to clarify before jumping all over people for "assuming" what you mean.

Please show me where I commented on something you said.

I still think trying to say INFJ = INFp is more black and white than what I was saying. Because that argument is a simplification of an idea. If that equation held any water that would mean that an MBTI INFJ would not even have to take a test to know which socionics type he was, correct?

And I should learn to clarify? Are you serious? Nothing I said had to even be considered. The moment that people did consider it but made assumptions was the moment it becomes a problem, you can't argue with me when your premise (in this case, what you ASSUME I mean) is flawed. I have no problem clarifying what I mean if someone appears confused by what I meant; all of you seemed to be pretty sure of yourselves (however wrong you may have been.)

 

[Chris_in_Orbit]

This was sort of why I brought up the subject. I was asking whether the functions were defined differently in the two different systems, and if so, how are they different? Because I always define MBTI type by function distribution (not vice versa) and it looks like Socionics does it the same way.

If the functions are defined the same way, INFJ in MBTI should be equivilant to INFp in Socionics, period. But that seems not to be the case, leading me to believe that either the functions are defined differently OR people are mistyping (maybe due to poorly written profiles or poorly explained function definitions). The third option is that people aren't typing in MBTI in the same way I am, they're just looking at the four dichotomies, in which case, I'd probably just look at their socionics type anyway. I guess there's a fourth option, too, which is me missing some key variable that would make this all make sense...

Somehow this turned into an emotionally charged argument; not at all what I'm interested in here.

Sorry about this, I'm not being emotional, I'm just addressing my views on all this. Everything you said does make sense, but if there are 4 people who said they are INFJs in both theories then you may need to take a closer look at the functions. Is Ni defined in the same way in both?

 

[fleurdujour]

I thought the consensus was to look at mbti and socionics as two seperate entities... I don't think you should be comparing two types or trying to translate mbti types into socionics ones (i.e. Infj = Infp)

Whatever you test as is what you are~

I had said that I was an INFJ in both, then said I got my answers from tests in both... then said that the difference was probably depending upon whether you are looking at Socionics for functions preferences or for overall types... you then said (above) that no one should be comparing two types or trying to translate between them (which we had been talking about)... thus responding to a discussion I had been part of, which I assumed to mean I would be involved in anything said about it, but clearly I have been assuming too much and you are RIGHT and everyone is a bunch of assumers who are wrong... if you want to point fingers and say who should have done what, then maybe instead of jump-attacking us all, you should have just clarified and pointed out gently that we may have misunderstood your point

 

[Chris_in_Orbit]

Ladies and gentlemen, here you have it, an ESTJ amongst a succession of 5 INFJs... let the headbutting begin...

I should probably follow your example and gently take the discussion where I want it to go. This and what karenk was doing really show who was attacking whom.

I had said that I was an INFJ in both, then said I got my answers from tests in both... then said that the difference was probably depending upon whether you are looking at Socionics for functions preferences or for overall types... you then said (above) that no one should be comparing two types or trying to translate between them (which we had been talking about)... thus responding to a discussion I had been part of, which I assumed to mean I would be involved in anything said about it, but clearly I have been assuming too much and you are RIGHT and everyone is a bunch of assumers who are wrong... if you want to point fingers and say who should have done what, then maybe instead of jump-attacking us all, you should have just clarified and pointed out gently that we may have misunderstood your point

Ok, this is just getting stupid. Nothing I was saying was directed at you. I'm standing by that. I made a broad statement, I don't mind discussing it... I don't even care whose right or wrong but you don't want to back down, instead you want to keep taking jabs at me for who knows what reason. If it will really make you feel better to win this argument then I will let you have it, but do not try to tell me I was jump-attacking anyone when all I was doing was defending my stance.

 

[fleurdujour]

I should probably follow your example and gently take the discussion where I want it to go.

I was just poking fun with a reference to the fact that most people in this discussion (and in the one on "INFJs Butt Heads with What Types") said ESTJs and INFJs don't get along. I was making a joke (I couldn't help but see the humor in the fact that this is supposed to be a discussion about how well our two types get along and then not even 5 pages into the thread some headbutting was already starting... that's not to say I personally believe ESTJs and INFJs don't get along... I was one of the few that said that the relationship could actually work quite well).

 

[redacted]

Everything you said does make sense, but if there are 4 people who said they are INFJs in both theories then you may need to take a closer look at the functions. Is Ni defined in the same way in both?

That's exactly my question.

 

[fleurdujour]

Ok, this is just getting stupid. Nothing I was saying was directed at you. I'm standing by that. I made a broad statement, I don't mind discussing it... I don't even care whose right or wrong but you don't want to back down, instead you want to keep taking jabs at me for who knows what reason. If it will really make you feel better to win this argument then I will let you have it, but do not try to tell me I was jump-attacking anyone when all I was doing was defending my stance.

I am not trying to win anything, just defending myself as well. You keep saying we are all wrong because we're making assumptions and are wrong for doing so. I just felt as though you were attacking our comments and thoughts. This is probably just a big misunderstanding magnified on both ends.

 

[raz]

 

[Chris_in_Orbit]

I am not trying to win anything, just defending myself as well. You keep saying we are all wrong because we're making assumptions and are wrong for doing so. I just felt as though you were attacking our comments and thoughts. This is probably just a big misunderstanding magnified on both ends.

Well, you were making assumptions and you were wrong for doing so...You didn't understand what I was saying and all of you were fighting me on it. I don't mind taking some of the blame but you have to admit my views were being attacked from three sides instead of being "calmly discussed" as you wanted it. Your little bits of humor along with karenks little ESTj comments were pretty rude.

With all that being said, I don't really care. If you are saying that you are just trying to defend your argument instead of trying to attack me then lets just drop it.

 

[Anja]

 

[karenk]

Please inform me about an ESTJs superego karenk.

Your little bits of humor along with karenks little ESTj comments were pretty rude.

Maybe you could do some research on ESTJ/superego instead of delegating the task. When you get something we'll compare notes.

 

[fleurdujour]

k done it's over... now back to the original question...

I found these:
Ethical intuitive introvert - Wikisocion
Intuitive ethical introvert - Wikisocion

...and they explain the functions of each type. I don't know if this is the best site for Socionics functions descriptions, but hopefully it can be a start. It still seems like, though the functions are different on paper, that the INFJ functions in Socionics are more similar to INFJ in MBTI. Though, after reading more into this, I definitely feel personally that MBTI is more accurate, because Socionics seems much more vague.

 

[Chris_in_Orbit]

On that same note, Ni as described in socionics terms

Introverted intuition

IEIs perceive, process, and produce information concerning trends and patterns over time most intensively. They constantly and inadvertently make judgments, assessments, and assumptions about relationships based on what they see as recurring trends from past behavior. They tend to understand the underlying dynamics of situations, people, etc., but may not be able to readily verbalize these insights since they are so internal and conceptual.

The temporal world of the IEI is vivid and complex. IEI's are very imaginative people who tend to be more mystical and dreamy, thus possibly annoying more practical or "grounded" types. Their gentle demeanor does not cast them as particularly rebellious, but their obscure desires often are a far cry from those of the typical person.

This actually kind of sounds like introverted feeling.

EDIT: Just read socionics Fi, definitely seems like Fi is the same in both theories.

 

[fleurdujour]

On that same note, Ni as described in socionics terms

Introverted intuition

IEIs perceive, process, and produce information concerning trends and patterns over time most intensively. They constantly and inadvertently make judgments, assessments, and assumptions about relationships based on what they see as recurring trends from past behavior. They tend to understand the underlying dynamics of situations, people, etc., but may not be able to readily verbalize these insights since they are so internal and conceptual.

The temporal world of the IEI is vivid and complex. IEI's are very imaginative people who tend to be more mystical and dreamy, thus possibly annoying more practical or "grounded" types. Their gentle demeanor does not cast them as particularly rebellious, but their obscure desires often are a far cry from those of the typical person.

This actually kind of sounds like introverted feeling.

EDIT: Just read socionics Fi, definitely seems like Fi is the same in both theories.

I think that's why Ni for MBTI INFJ's does not make sense in Socionics. I don't think you can go by functions (MBTI functions) to judge what you would be in Socionics (therefore, INFJ NiFe would not mean the same thing as NiFe in Socionics, so they would not be INFP). The Socionics INFJ FiNe description seems to make more sense for MBTI INFJ, in my opinion.

 

[Chris_in_Orbit]

So you don't relate to socionics Ni?

 

[fleurdujour]

On that same note, Ni as described in socionics terms

Introverted intuition

IEIs perceive, process, and produce information concerning trends and patterns over time most intensively. They constantly and inadvertently make judgments, assessments, and assumptions about relationships based on what they see as recurring trends from past behavior. They tend to understand the underlying dynamics of situations, people, etc., but may not be able to readily verbalize these insights since they are so internal and conceptual.

The temporal world of the IEI is vivid and complex. IEI's are very imaginative people who tend to be more mystical and dreamy, thus possibly annoying more practical or "grounded" types. Their gentle demeanor does not cast them as particularly rebellious, but their obscure desires often are a far cry from those of the typical person.

This actually kind of sounds like introverted feeling.

EDIT: Just read socionics Fi, definitely seems like Fi is the same in both theories.

So you don't relate to socionics Ni?

Not really enough I don't think. I think this would relate more to INFP. I am not really dreamy or mystical and can "readily verbalize" what I intuit. I'll find a Ni and Ne description from MBTI and put them together for side-by-side comparison (though I don't know if we'll get a lot, because I think Socionics is maybe too vague for this to work right).

When you say it sounds like introverted feeling, do you mean it sounds like MBTI introverted feeling?

 

[Chris_in_Orbit]

When you say it sounds like introverted feeling, do you mean it sounds like MBTI introverted feeling?

Yes.